To think this situation in East Africa could be less serious than it is if there was more information about contraception.

[JazzieJeff]

Ive been thinking this over for some time, and I don't want to appear prejudiced, but I don't think I am being. Because after all, so many people say of people who are struggling to live on low wages/benefits in this country 'why are they continuing to have children?'. So really, my point is the same, but in East Africa, people are bringing children into a world where there is a bloody good chance they will starve or die a horrible death from dirty water.

I dont know whether it's a lack of education, or the spread of the Catholic faith in the developing world. However, I'm not sure if either of these validates people continuing to bring children into such a dire situation. I can honestly say that if I was in East Africa, and that was happening to me and I didn't have access to contraception that I would abstain. I really would. I could not bear to allow any child of mine to suffer. Secondly, if it really is the Catholic faith which prevents so many people from using contraception (as is the case in many developing countries), why isn't there more pressure from governments and charities on the Vatican to start putting money up to start paying for all these children? It's not like they're short of cash; how about using some of those funds they use to put gold leaf on the walls to start putting food in children's mouths. Children, that ultimately, they are responsible for. Because this is getting ridiculous. This has happened twice (that I know of in this country) in my lifetime. Either way, AIBU to think that there needs to be a better solution to birth control in these places, be it contraception or abstinence?

Are you under the impression that aid stops once Kate Aidie finishes her DEC appeal?

If I'm so wrong, please take the time to correct me then.

No snicker I'm not. But the aid isn't enough.

How am I deranged for wanting to help?

This thread made me think of this story I read recently - had me in tears, please read it, it is amazing though this is the shortened article to the more indepth one I read.

Inspirational

Right I'm out, Op I'm sure there are many humanitarian awards in your future. Enjoy.

The thing is Jazzie, whilst it is admirable that you care and really encouraging that you want to do something to help, you seem to be thinking there is a quick fix. You also seem to be terrible at reading the posts on here.

No one has said that there should not be a package of aid and education that goes far beyond dumping food parcels and running for the hill. There are, already, numerous organisations that are working to improve education, health and womens rights, along with educating people about contraception and protection from HIV.

Unfortuantly, these efforts are not going to change things over night - or in reality at all - when the problems around famine, war, drought, corruption etc etc exist and are so prevelant. Not only that, a huge cultural shift would be required and that sort of thing doesnt happen over night and isnt necessarily what people want, even if to people in the west it seems "the right way".

This is a very complex issue and you are missing the point. No one is saying people who are poor do not deserve education or womens rights. Everyone on here would be thrilled if that were the case, but you - sadly- cannot just say "hang on - they deserve an education" pop over to Africa and spend as you say "20 minutes with these women" and all will be well. It is a lot lot more complicated.

Good on you for wanting things to change. I really suggest you find out a lot more about the issues and then see if you can help in whatever you see fit. Good luck with it.

begony that's amazing, thank you for that link.

I'm not trying to be an arse, I'm just asking questions. And so far I'm supposed to be a Nazi for it.

I must admit I wondered this myself, OP. I was listening to a woman describe how she had to leave her toddler behind because he wouldn't be able to keep up with her other seven children. Heartbreaking.

Those who say we haven't the right to challenge cultural mindsets, what about female genital mutilation? Forced marriages? Slavery? Oppression by dictators in north Africa? We seem to be happy to challenge them. Challenging a mindset that condemns women to repeated childbirth doesn't seem that inhumane and patronising to me.

The best aid agencies work on both principles. They address the immediate need for food and the long-term development needs of poor communities.

For example Plan UK collect money throughout the year from child sponsorship that is spent largely on education (including contraception) and sanitation projects. Christian Aid collects mainly during Christian Aid week, every year, not just when there is a famine. Cafod have a big drive during Lent which involves all Catholic parishes and Catholic schools. Despite being a Catholic charity they promote condoms to prevent AIDS. Save the Children educate children about sexual health, even during a non famine year. Need I go on?

And just because catgirl and others are saying really useful things does NOT mean that they need to fuck off back to some mythical middle class expresso-land.

"I SAID THAT IF I WAS IN THAT SITUATION, ME JAZZIEJEFF I WOULD CHOOSE TO ABSTAIN BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE MY CHOICE." but it wouldn't. Because if you were in that situation you would be a different person who would conform to a different culture and different thought process It's not like comparing apples with apples....

No-one called the OP a nazi.

Someone called the OP on the naive 'I would do it differently if it were me' statement. Easy to say; not easy to do.

No cat I'm not saying it's a quick fix. I just think that when the focus is off this group of people in a few months time, donations will go down, and people will stop thinking about it.

I also understand there's a vast cultural difference. In fact, vast is an understatement. So surely then, there should be more research into helping in a way which is going to resonate. Ok then, so if that isnt more education or contraception, fine. But let's just not give up. Look at the article begony posted. That man is amazing; he singlehandedly brought amenitites to his whole village and he wasn't fully educated because he couldn't afford the school fees. So surely that reinforces my point that they don't not want a better way of life for them and their children because they are not educated? They are aware!

If you go back line, my thoughts were compared to Nazi eugenics.

wannabe I was giving the example that if by some weird tardis-like jump, I was suddenly in that situation, I would choose that personally because of sex ed. Now, I understand there is a vast cultural difference between this country and the countries contained within this area. But.... It does seem that once the focus is off those places, things don't improve enough.

Yeah, I know, I read it.

i don't think the OP is being entirely U. the issue has crossed my mind too, but contraception is down on the long list of things that could be done to help these people. i think it is wrong to call the OP ignorant or ridiculous, she is at least thinking of a long term plan rather than handing out aid money, because as we know thats doing very little. it would be ignorant to think that sending over water and food is enough. the biggest problem imo is corruption. millions and millions are given in aid but a small percentage of it actually reaches those in need. if the corruption was wiped away the first thing needed for long term sustainability is education and that does involve contraception to some degree. there are cultural differences and women probably do think that they have to have sex and that they are the property of a man, but Im sure not all of the men aren't heartless rapists either. you can all call me ignorant and stupid but there are bound to men in these areas that don't want any more children either. an education is not going to eradicate thousands of years of culture but i believe that it will help some people out there at least they will have been given an option to change their lives.

(not very eloquent today but i hope i got my point across)

oooh pithy, LineRunner!

Thanks maigh I'm not trying to be judgey or whatever, really I'm not. I'm just saying there has got to be a better way, because thhe formula that we're using isn't working.

Ok so I lied I'm not out. Show me one person on this thread who advocates chucking a bit of food and water at the situation.

JazzieJeff Donations may go down, but aid agencies are there all the time, doing as you suggest, advising on contraception and encouraging women to use contraception mainly condoms, setting up schools, persuading parents to allow their children to attend school, educating and encourage communities to use their land and few animals as best they can.

As other posters have already said charities, aid agencies are there day in day out, for example dd1s school collect /fundraise all through the six weeks of Lent every year, also at Christmas. The situation is so horribly dire at the minute because of an explosion of several disasters at the same time ie civil war, drought, communities already weakened through disease, failure of crops.

D'oh really Jazzie? Cos the way I see it, everyone else thinks our current foreign aid policy is working wonders!!

Well I for one think you make a good point in your OP.

Somebody somewhere needs to challenge this, but wont because of this kind of reaction.

The governments of the West cannot keep appeasing their concienses by writing a blank cheque to Africa every year.

Maybe the attitudes of the men in these countries needs to be changed, so that women will not be forced to have more children (if that is the case).