To think this situation in East Africa could be less serious than it is if there was more information about contraception.

[JazzieJeff]

Ive been thinking this over for some time, and I don't want to appear prejudiced, but I don't think I am being. Because after all, so many people say of people who are struggling to live on low wages/benefits in this country 'why are they continuing to have children?'. So really, my point is the same, but in East Africa, people are bringing children into a world where there is a bloody good chance they will starve or die a horrible death from dirty water.

I dont know whether it's a lack of education, or the spread of the Catholic faith in the developing world. However, I'm not sure if either of these validates people continuing to bring children into such a dire situation. I can honestly say that if I was in East Africa, and that was happening to me and I didn't have access to contraception that I would abstain. I really would. I could not bear to allow any child of mine to suffer. Secondly, if it really is the Catholic faith which prevents so many people from using contraception (as is the case in many developing countries), why isn't there more pressure from governments and charities on the Vatican to start putting money up to start paying for all these children? It's not like they're short of cash; how about using some of those funds they use to put gold leaf on the walls to start putting food in children's mouths. Children, that ultimately, they are responsible for. Because this is getting ridiculous. This has happened twice (that I know of in this country) in my lifetime. Either way, AIBU to think that there needs to be a better solution to birth control in these places, be it contraception or abstinence?

Ok, I am asking the following question as I can see that there are people on this thread that are far more knowledgable than I on this subject, and I think it is a question that needs to be asked and debated through to try and find some kind of answer.

WHY is so much of Africa messed up? Why are such horrific things happening in the Congo, the slaughter of people with albinism in Tanzania, drought, famine... if I was superstitious I'd think there was a curse.
Why why why? And, if the world as a whole can honestly debate this, can we, for want of a better term, make it better?

My dad was born in Cape Town, spent first few years of his life there, and has nothing good to say about it, only horror stories. He loathes the place and it's where he was born .

My heart fucking breaks for all these babies, all the women and girls subjected to such horrors, boys not much older than my son forced into killing, mothers having to choose which child lives, and I would be lying if I denied ever having thought of the contraceptive thing, even though I know now that it's not so simple. :(

What can the world, with Africa, do to heal this? Do we butt out instead of imposing western cultural values? WHAT DO WE DO THEN?

would things change if the worlds wealth was redistributed more fairly? Curious as to what the experts think would make a difference to developing countries, not only Africa but everywhere. Is increased wealth and then hopefully better education, nutrition, health care the answer to start change? And if it was do we really want or would be willing to 'share'? Or do these countries have to run a course and make the change themselves (of course with help and aid) from within the way developed countries have done - often at the expense of much poorer ones of course.

And it's not what the OP has said so much but the arrogance that she has suddenly just thought about this and has to share and preach to everyone else to educate us as obviously we only think bunging a fiver at comic relief once a year is enough. she obviously thinks no-one else considers the wider picture.

I think that most of the people in this thread have entirely misread the OP's post. It is not saying 'Don't send food over to Africa, only contraceptives', it is not saying 'Spend 20 minutes telling African women to only have 2 kids and use the pill', and it is certainly not saying 'Force people to use contraception, stop women from having children and generally follow Nazi policies' (Or atleast, in my interpretation).

From what I read from it, it is quite a valid point. It is saying that, AS WELL as sending food, water, medicine, ect, also send over contraceptives. And it is also saying that the eduction should be for a long while. Start teaching children (as children in most western schools are) about sex and relationships from a young age (and no, I'm not saying tell children about the entire birds and bees at 5). It is also saying to teach MEN as well as women about this. This is not a quick fix, and it would be more expensive in terms of aid, but it would, after a few years, begin to fix the poverty in Africa.

With less children, less food would be needed to sustaine the population (this is looking at a future where medical clinics/schools are common in Africa, which many charities are working towards). I am not suggesting that straight away populations would become sustainable, as this is not a quick fix. Rather, in many years, population expansion would level out. This is what I believe is part of the solution to helping stop poverty in Africa (along side the downfall of dictators, the end of civil war and the changes in the opinions of people).

And to clear some things up, if you're going to whinge about how it's trying to make the whole world like 'The West', then ask yourself whether you support the protests in Burma, the uprising in Libya, or the civil war in Afghanistan. And I have also mentioned costs in this thread. I am not saying that we should stop spending money for charity, nor that the only reason this solution is up as for a cost cutting task, but I know many people have gripes with money we're sending to help foriegn countries (such as the £1 billion to the space faring India). I agree with sending money to poverty stricken countries.

It's also annoyed me that apparent immaturity of some Mumsnet posters. This is my first time on the website, and I thought the website was meant to be for mature discussion and debating on issues as well as a place to get chat about less consequential things. All I've seen on this thread is people holding the opinion of 'I don't agree with the OP, so I will ridicule the OP and anyone who agrees with it' (not that I'm saying anyone who has disagreed is of this opinion).

So yeah, sorry about massive long post but I needed to get my opinions out.

BTW, from EdgeOfTheWorld's 14 year old son

EdgeoftheWorld The OP has already admitted her original post was flawed.

LineRunner Yes, I know that. I was just laying out my opinions on the OP and the subject in general.

Had to leave this thread last night as was so upset by OP's ignorance, it seems it was a good choice.

I think that most of the people in this thread have entirely misread the OP's post

Your words.

Well am just back from a couple of years in East Africa where most of my friendship group were aid workers (USAid, DFID, Oxfam etc). After many hours drinking, somebody would always come up with the suggestion: 'should we all just leave, block the borders and leave Africa to fight it out for ten years?'. Everybody knows Aid isn't working longterm, but everybody also knows it is impossible to stand by and let potentially millions of people die.

Some (anecdotal and general) points:

1. Yeah, just to confirm that only about 3 people are actually Catholic in E Africa, so you can't blame the pope.
2. Of all the church groups I saw, the catholic ones worked the most tirelessly and certainly didn't ask questions about contraception. The Mother Theresa nuns run the biggest orphanages in Ethiopia so whatever they're supposed to think, they're certainly not lecturing anybody about using contraception.
3. You can buy condoms everywhere in Ethiopia and Djibouti- even really out in the sticks. And they're super cheap, even by local standards.
4. This is a recurring famine. Around 100,000 people died a couple of years ago too. I know because I phoned round the newspapers in the UK trying to get them to write something. I was told, bluntly (but kindly- they were the only one who phoned me back) by The Times that the UK wasn't interested until it was 10 times that number.
5. I went down to the famine-stricken areas and the average family size does actually increase from what we knew in Addis. Women there were having 10+ children and, as has been said before, this seems sensible if you are to expect most of them to die.

The governments are trying to do something about population, but tbh, the only real solution is for the standard of living to rise so that your children are more likely to survive and there is a system in place to support you in your old age.

So should we stop giving Aid to Africa? Should we let millions of people die? Probably, because saving people now will only lead to an increase in the population later in an area that can't support that growth. But I don't think anybody can sit back and do nothing. I'll certainly be donating money.

LineRunner We have different opinions of 'The Point'.

Oh, AFAIC, if a country can support a space/nuclear programme, then they should be supporting their people without western aid. Do not get me started about a spacey nuclear country with 18 million children living on the streets

(And, amazing though the space shuttle is, couldn't help thinking it a complete waste of money that could have been spent on, say, healthcare... )

'This is why many educated African's resent the arrogant and patronising attitudes of westerners who think they know something about African cultures based on a few personal anecdotes spewed out by aid workers who spent a gap year with 'the poor little African children' and Comic Relief.'

Westerners have been asked for help time and time again - why in gods name should they not try and help other than with money, why can they not try to help in other ways - after all the actual Afrincan's are doing a shocking job of actually investing in communities and giving their people a sustainable living even if it is backed by charities and western aid.

I will give no money to any sort of charity for africa or any other 3rd world country unless it is used for projects to help people help themselves - and yes in some respects stopping population growth for a short period may be a good thing. But really the lives of these children we see dying on the TV are in the eyes of their mothers going to be short and awful - they know they are going to die - that is why they have so many in the first place isn't it. Maybe if you asked the mother what she thought she would shrug and say well I knew if I had 6 kids I would only end up with 2, it's painful but it is life. WHereas we with our western medicine and low mortality rates in childhood see it as some thing awful that we can fix.

I do hate it when people on mumsnet who think they are educated or who has an aunt or cousin who lives in a particular place thinks they have the devine right to abuse others, because they may or may not have a tenuous link the the OP does't - FFS the arrogance of some of the people in their answers to the OP makes me cross.

btw - this was my sons oppinion if you read to the bottom

Edgeoftheworld - your son sounds like a fab young man.

Interesting post edge's son.

One half of my family born and raised in east africa (not of english origin) and the other parent recently spent five years working in development in a neighbouring country. So I have been told stories spanning two generations.

This sums up their experiences.

1. Where people live in grinding poverty and have no voice and no help there will be a tendency to 'live for the moment'. We can talk about consequences of actions as we have that luxury. We all know about saving for our kids - looking after ourselves for the long term if we can, and potential consequences if we can't or won't. But where live expectancy is so low and very little reward for hard work other than feeding youreslf and (with a bit of luck) your family for the week how can people be expected to think long term.

1. Sex education - great to have it - but let's face it's been an expensive failure in the UK hasn't it.

1. Religion - my dm noted that religion did play a role in behaviours. A generation later my df found the same thing.

1. level of overinflated public sector allowances.

They both found it easier to support one person or one family in their own ways over that 50 year period of time. That's patronage isn't it. But it made more of a positive impact.

All problems are complex.

Edge's son and Madame Castafiore - I think people have been critical of the OP and her subsequent line of argument for good reason.

She started this thread with her 'lightbulb' revelation about contraception and supported it with so many misconceptions that it was clear she hadn't give the matter much thought or research, e.g. Thinking that

• Catholicism is a major influence in East Africa
• lack of education about contraception is the main reason people have large families
• Aid agencies only provide relief and have never thought to invest in longer term development like healthcare and education.
• private aid - NGOs and missionaries etc.. are the main (only?) providers of safety nets, healthcare etc... in Africa.
• it is possible to come up with answer to complex problems in other countries without knowing anything of their politics, culture and economics.
• nothing has changed in Africa in the past decade.

Etc...

Pointing out these misconceptions is not 'abusing' the OP.

I don't think LDNmummy and others are saying that because of their family background and experience etc... only they know enough to can have an opinion. They are saying that because they know something in detail about some other part of the world they recognise how little they know and that easy answers are likely to be wrong.

If you think about social issues in the UK - obesity, financing and care in retirement etc.. It is obvious that these too are complex problems. if someone was on here from Mongolia or somewhere with no knowledge of the country, but thinking the'd got it all worked out, it would raise peoples hackles.

Good post Himalaya.

the poster who compared the OP to a nazi should be fucking ashamed of herself.

That has made me angrier than I ahve been on MN in a long time. Who the hell do you think you are. Can you even read ffs? Rub both your brain cells togethr and READ WHAT THE OP SAID. How the hell did she sound like she was "implying that we should march through poor countries and neuter the women." You read what you wanted to read and you came back with the worst insult you could think of.

who was that?

"ohhappyday Fri 08-Jul-11 20:36:41
This post is making me so angry - another person tried this once - Hitler - under the Nazi eugenics policy!! It sounds like you are implying that we should march through poor countries and neuter the women. "

I am sure the OP is ignorant - as people have tld her again and again. I am too. I don't see why women shouldn't have a choice over their reproduction but apparently that opinion is racist. But that comment really takes the bisucit and I would support any move to get that poster banned for that shocking attack on someone who had shown over and over she was willing to be educated.

I can't think of anyone on here who has said that women shouldn't have a choice, please correct me if I'm wrong or are you only reading what you want to read yourself. And banned for that, get a grip.

banned for comparing someone to nazis. I should think so.
Given the OP has said many times she is willing to learn and be taught.
And no, no one has explained why women shouldn't have a choice. What done instead is to call the OP naive, deluded, racist and compared her to nazis.

This post for example:

"nomorehotbaths Fri 08-Jul-11 20:20:09
Jazzie, I work in aid, and you are I'm afraid hugely and depressingly ignorant of the complex issues around poverty.

How dare you sit in luxury with your high and mighty Western attitudes and suggest the poor should abstain? How do you abstain, please, when your culture dictates for example that you must have sex with your husband when and if he pleases, and whether or not he wishes to use contraception?

You know and understand nothing of what these people's lives are like. As other, more sensible posters have said, there are many reasons that people have children in poor countries - lack of contraception, cultural reasons, a wish to have children to provide for you in the future...get OFF your judgemental ignorant high horse."

flags up lack of access to contraception as one of the reasons why people have children in poor countries. Forgive me if my alliegance to nazis makes me unable to process a simple sentence but isn't access to contraception one of the things the OP is suggesting we help to address?

Sorry but no. The OP was saying that in some areas contraception was freely available but had a very low take up. The OP was saying that the reason contraception wasn't used was a lack of education. This was felt by many to be insulting and naive.

this thread is bullying. The OP is not on to stir, she has said many times she is on to learn. moondog came on early on and cleared up some of her misconceptions, and since then people have fallen over themselves to villify her. Pathetic.