To think this situation in East Africa could be less serious than it is if there was more information about contraception.

[JazzieJeff]

Ive been thinking this over for some time, and I don't want to appear prejudiced, but I don't think I am being. Because after all, so many people say of people who are struggling to live on low wages/benefits in this country 'why are they continuing to have children?'. So really, my point is the same, but in East Africa, people are bringing children into a world where there is a bloody good chance they will starve or die a horrible death from dirty water.

I dont know whether it's a lack of education, or the spread of the Catholic faith in the developing world. However, I'm not sure if either of these validates people continuing to bring children into such a dire situation. I can honestly say that if I was in East Africa, and that was happening to me and I didn't have access to contraception that I would abstain. I really would. I could not bear to allow any child of mine to suffer. Secondly, if it really is the Catholic faith which prevents so many people from using contraception (as is the case in many developing countries), why isn't there more pressure from governments and charities on the Vatican to start putting money up to start paying for all these children? It's not like they're short of cash; how about using some of those funds they use to put gold leaf on the walls to start putting food in children's mouths. Children, that ultimately, they are responsible for. Because this is getting ridiculous. This has happened twice (that I know of in this country) in my lifetime. Either way, AIBU to think that there needs to be a better solution to birth control in these places, be it contraception or abstinence?

nooo, no it really isn't. Have you ever heard of endemic corruption? Of the dependency culture? Have you read a book?

You're not even making sense now. If you were in their shoes you wouldn't have any education so your situation would be completely different and you wouldn't be choosing to be abstinent because you were poor.

Under the Bush administration billions of dollars in aid was given to developing countries with the proviso that none of it would be spent on family planning services. The Vatican is rich and influential (although only amongst RCs, not other Christians or people of other faiths) but it doesn't hold a candle to the right wing evangelicals. Things are changing under Obama but naturally when people have literally nothing, no education, no water, no access to medical care then it is going to take a long time to roll out access to contraception. People walk for miles to access food aid, imagine how pissed off they would be if when they arrived all that was available was a packet of condoms.

I think its madness to blame women for not abstaining. There just aren't enough women who don't fall into the like sex to much category, the DH and society expect a married woman to be sexually active category or the DH will be having sex regardless of his wife's ideas of abstinence category.

I think so Jazzie :) do hope i didnt come across as patronising, its hard over the internet sometimes to express yourself in the way you mean.

and Jazzie, I'm a teacher, although I'm not sure that's pertinent to my point...

Somalia. a country which is at the heart of the current crisis has no proper government, and in most areas no schools , no health service, no decent infrastructure, and most people do not have any access to clean water let alone contraception.

There is a huge problem all over africa with the catholic church providing a lot of the aid support but on the condition that countries/hospitals/loacl governments do not provide contraception or contraception advice.

There is also the complexity of living in a country in which one in five children die, women that have no education, few rights and very few sexual rights (somalia has one of the highest number of female circumsition/mutilation).

There is also war, famine, government corruption, religious interference, and extreme poverty on a level we have no comprehension of.

there are no easy solutions. But turning away isn't good enough.

Contraception cannot be the 'start'. If you live in an area where you're not sure your children will make it to adulthood and you know that you'll be reliant on any children to protect and take care of you if you become infirm in adulthood (which is particularly the case for elderly women), you're likely to have more children to give yourself a better chance. Their rights and future rely on their bodies having children. Contraception as a start completely misses the issues within the society and falls into the 'if they had less babies everything would be cured' lie (and misses the fact that family planning aid is one of the most common aid sent to Africa, and many have been kicked out for being so aggressive that women no longer wish to go to those health clinics for fear of being harassed).

A start would be making sure the basics are there so that more children survive - sanitation, water pipes for easier access to clean water, reliable food sources that aren't all taken by the West, health care, education. All of these things need to be in place, and arranged in a way that the local people can care for themselves (a major problem previously has been giving a lot of fancy equipment that works for a few months, but no way for them to care for it if something breaks). This will cause a temporary upturn in population but a more secure sense for people about the future. Only after you make sure people 'really live' to a proper age, then you can start discussing social care for the elderly and safer working conditions and then more mass contraception push. Contraception should be provided in the health care in the first step, but pushing it hard before mothers know that their child will likely make it to adulthood is likely to fail. Long term water, sanitation, food, and healthcare that can be maintained locally have to be the start.

This post is making me so angry - another person tried this once - Hitler - under the Nazi eugenics policy!! It sounds like you are implying that we should march through poor countries and neuter the women. Who are we to tell other people how they should live there lives. Yes, I agree that education is the answer but as Freudian said there are much more pressing problems. Many Africans live in isolated areas with no fresh water etc I dont think their priority would be "have I taken my pill today". There would be many cultural obstacles to overcome. Also why are you placing all the responsibility on the women most of these women do not have choices when it comes to sex let alone contraception.

Also, although I am no great champion of the Catholic Church - they are out there doing something. It is not the case that they simply advocate not using condoms etc - they try to teach about fidelity, marriage etc. Many Catholic people have committed their lives to serving in Africa, doing a lot more than you seem to be on your keyboard.

If you feel so strongly why are you here? Shouldnt you be out there working and campaigning.

Also because we are "British" what gives us the right to tell the Africans what they should and should not be doing.

Jazzie. It is great you care and want to help with a solution. I think you would really benefit from trying to get a greater understanding of the issues before jumping in with a solution that does come across as very naieve (at best).

We pay for my SIL's medication. Her husband works 6 days a week and earns £200 a month. Her medication (ONE medicine) costs us £100 a month. Before they were living on £100 a month.

I'll make sure to tell her next time I'm over to stop having sex just in case she gets pregnant again cos, you know, they're poor.

Oh god. Thats not what i meant. I meant it might be a start alongside all the other things you mentioned NotJustKangaKhan. As in roughtly together , when health care is built up so is contraception/childrens health care etc.
Might just be a vain hope but i would like to think it could be done.

5% of the Sudanese population is Roman Catholic, 3% in Eritrea, 0.6% in Ethiopia and there are around 100 RCs in Somalia so I don't think the Vatican has much influence over population control there.

Ok coca, if you're comparing it to an abusive relationship, then what if the women's shelters and refuges didn't exist? What if midwives and doctors weren't trained in it, or charged a fortune for that information? Not all women are able, or ready to get out of an abusive relationship, but those who are ready to take that step, there is help out there. My MIL took 20 years to seek help, but when she did, there were options. God knows what'd have happened if there wasn't the aid there.

tso ah, another one who is 'dispairing' of the armed forces. Tell me something I haven't heard before. We can barely walk without dragging our knuckles across the ground. In fact, we're just drawing the Queen's shilling to be human bullet shields. Of course there are far more complex problems going on. I find it disturbing that so many people dont think these families don't have a human right to a choice.

begonyabampot - yes, that was what I was thinking of; the post-Holocaust mentality - we can't conceive of a world where the Holocaust wasn't seen as a terrible thing, and where no-one stood up against the horrific activities at the time, but the people involved didn't live in "our" world - they lived in a time and place when the concept of the Holocaust as a horrific past event didn't exist.

And no one is saying contraception should be foreced ! Surley if we want to help we should allow the option of contraception ?

*forced.

WHAT THE FUCK. How are you comparing me to a Nazi? That is way out of line.

Never did I suggest a eugenics policy. My God, how far have you missed the point?! I am asking that these women have a right to choose what happens to their bodies. How is that NAZISM? How fucking dare you trivialise something like that. How fucking dare you.

Jazzie.. I think most people on here do think "these people" have a right to choice. It is just unfortunate that we cannot wave a magic wand and create a situation where they can actually exercise that choice . .

And never did I say that your sil shouldn't have children because she's poor Amy . I'm saying that people should be given the option.

Does no one think these women have a right to contraception if they want it?

Ok OP I wan't comparing it to an abusive relationship, I will try again, if you have no experience of a situation (for example an abusive relationship) you cannot say "I would do xyz" it makes you sound like an arrogant loon.

I know that more needs to happen, not just contraception. I KNOW THAT. I KNOW. But it feels like because theyre poor, people are saying 'it's ok for her to have a baby at a rate of one a year because she doesn't know any better'.

"And it hasn't crossed these women's minds at all that they might like to stop having children, because they can't bear to watch anymore die of malnutrition/disease?"

Hasn't it crossed your mind that the only hope these women have of supporting themselves and their family is to have enough children survive to adulthood. If you think half your dcs will die in childhood then you have twice as many, not none. Its not all that long ago that British women did the exact same thing but we don't have to anymore because our children are immunised and have safe drinking water and go to the doctor when they are ill.

So coca I cannot have an opinion because I haven't had direct experience of not even having the luxury of living hand to mouth I'm so poor?

What I said was, if I didn't have contraception I would do xyz, not these people should do the same. I think they're entitled to a basic understanding of birth control like I received. Thats be what, 20 minutes of someone outlining options plus some basic contraception options if there was an uptake? People in this situation dont have the right to that, no?

Oh, ok then. I'll not have an opinion or ask questions.

OMG!!! I never thought of that. You are right OP. If we could just get 20 minutes with these women an outline some basic options they WOULD be able to make the choice to stop having children. 20 minutes is all it would take to totally change a culture, stop rape, imbed womens rights to the point where they were implemented and respected and stop rape.

Appararntly Syria is having a few issues. You couldn't pop over and see if you can sort it could you?

Ta x

No one is saying they shouldn't be entitled to choice and education! Have all the opinions you like.