I don't think I am but am prepared to be told I am if the MN Jury thinks so

[fuckmepinkandCALLmegoran]

DD1 is 12, she is at her dad's this weekend, and has gone to her grandmother as they have a farm and it is silage time.

She has just sent me a picture of herself in overalls DRIVING A TRACTOR WITH A TRAILER ON IT

I have texted her and she is delighted to be allowed to cart the "near home" fields where she doesn't have to go on the road.

I am most displeased about this. I think it's dangerous and irresponsible.

But past conversations with ex when DS was this age did not go well, as he cannot see the problem nor can his family. They all did it at that age.

So, oh MN July, AIBU to think she's too young, it's too much responsibility and far too dangerous?

I get the impression that the majority of those who think it is 'a jolly jape' would never, never in a million years let their own children do what your daughter is doing (proper, unsupervised farm work as opposed to once round the yard on a small tractor under supervision) at that age.

pink FWIW, was about to butt in and say same thing - have seen last few messages ('I'm On' thing) over last few days, and the posts on this thread are like Groundhog Day - obvious lots and lots of posters who just haven't got whole picture. Which must be quite awful for you. So you have my sympathy, IYSWIM.

Begonyabampot - I agree.

As I said from the start of the thread (before I knew it was illegal) this isn't round the yard on the wee tractor with granny watching out the window, it is a big tractor (look my profile) with a big silage trailer and she's on her own.

Plus, now I've found out it's ILLEGAL - not a Health and Safety advisory regulation but actually AGAINST THE LAW

And I still maintain, if it's ok for my daughter to do that, then it should be ok for them to transport kids with no car seats. And good luck telling the policeman when he stops you.

Tchootnika - thanks

I can't think of any other area where I could post on here "my ex takes my daughter and he and his family behave in xyz way which is breaking the law" and posters would pile in and tell me I'm a spoilsport and trying to "get at" him.

I'm actually in tears now over this thread I feel attacked. And I don't get it. Please can some of the people who've said I am spoiling her fun answer my point - it is fucking illegal - do you transport your kids with no car seats? would it be ok if she ran your child over and killed them then? or seriously injured them such that you would need to constantly care for them for the rest of their lives? Because you wouldn't get an insurance pay out to help, because SHE HAS NO FUCKING INSURANCE IT IS BASTARDING ILLEGAL

YABU. I have friends who have twins on a farm. They both drove the tractor at younger than 12. They weren't just let loose though, their Dad taught them how properly. As previous posters said. Tractors are expensive. Kids are irreplaceable. A farmer would let her drive if it was not safe.

Marge - it is ILLEGAL AND AGAINST THE LAW.

She has not been taught how properly.

This family have form for not teaching kids properly and letting them loose when it isn't safe.

Have you read the whole thread?

FGS - how can this be deemed 'safe'. It is well known that farms are seen as dangerous places to work with a higher than average accident/death rate than most other industries. Chances are she probably would be fine and it is a great experience and sure she is having fun BUT it is illegal and has the potential to be dangerous as was proven by the incident with the brother.

Begony - and her uncle who rolled a jcb off the side of the silo and various clipped gates/walls/posts. And other incidents which I detailed up the thread.

I really don't understand people who think it's oK to break the law. Do you put your kids in car seats? If your friend didn't put their kids in car seats, does that mean it's OK for you not to put yours in? Even though it's illegal? If your mum and dad didn't put you in a car seat, does that make it ok?

At what point does a law HAVE to be obeyed? I didn't realise laws were an optional thing.

Now I am just being devils advocate here, but I imagine your question as to why people do not recognise that 'the law is the law' depends on how they view laws and statute.

Is a law legitimate because it is laid down by parliament or because it is given legitmacy by the majority accepting it? Is 'law the law' regardless of what it contains i.e. what if the age of consent for homosexuals was raised to 21? Think about the hundreds (thousands?) of people in the UK that 'flout' the hunting laws?

I realise this is not analougous at all and definitely see your position - its a safety issue and the point about the complete lack of insurance! But I just wanted to give a possible explanation as to why posters are 'ignoring' your comments as to the Law - people dont always see it as black and white as you think.

Rosie, maybe it would be best to get this thread deleted and put another one in legal/relationships with the facts at the top.

Hopefully you will get less idiots and it'll be less upsetting for you.

Helen - fair point but if we accept the concept of the rule of law, then we accept the restrictions that the lawfully elected government put upon us? Otherwise it's anarchy.

Plus, at the end of the day she is a child not an adult. If an adult chooses to flout the hunting laws that's up to them.

LaWeasel - I might just do that. I am on holiday and am sitting here in tears because I am being accused of spoiling my child's fun and having it in for my ex because I don't want my daughter to be doing something illegal. My relationship with my DD has been called into question, i've been told I'm a spoilsport and trying to dig around with a solicitor to find a regulation to send in a bunch of officious strangers.

All I was trying to do when I started the thread was to say AIBU to think this is dangerous - and a bit of a hand hold and it'll be fine.

Now, knowing that it is illegal for her to be doing this I am worried sick. Literally to the point of tears with the horrible things that have been said. How can I stand back and let my DD do something that is illegal, could cost her her future if she fucks up and crashes and ends up with a criminal conviction?

I know I keep coming back to it, but we all used to do things back in the day that nowadays aren't considered safe - does that mean I can chuck out the car seat, unbolt the seatbelts? No, it doesn't - because the LAW says seatbelts, car seats and NO CHILDREN ON TRACTORS.

Do we accept those restrictions even if the law passed by a lawfully elected government is manifestly wrong or immoral? there have been plenty of shady administrations 'lawfully elected'!

Anyway, I have gone completely off tangent and am in no way equating a perfectly sensible H&S laws with discrimination or race laws!

HelenMcB1 I think a lot of the posters who are ignoring the comments about it being illegal are doing it because they are essentially covering up their own ignorance of the law.

No one who has read this thread can be under any illusion that allowing a child of 12 to be on a tractor (let alone drive it) is illegal. Therefore if a parent has allowed this or was planning to allow it the only way they can hide their own irresponsibility is by pretending that the law is somehow wrong.

I think that if the OP had substituted factory for farm, forklift for tractor, DS for DD the answers would have been totally different. An awful lot of people are deluding themselves about this being safe.

We all wear seatbelts even without personal experience of an accident because we know it is safer. Yet a number of posters have direct experience of accidents involving tractors and are still posting YABU because it didnt do them any harm! There is no sense in this!

Helen - this is a safety issue, not an issue or place to debate legal theory. I am more than happy to discuss black letter law vs natural law and other theories of legal thought but honestly I would prefer not to do it on the thread.

Yes there have been shady administrations lawfully elected, but in this country we have the concept of the separation of powers, with the executive, the legislature and the judiciary kept separate, and a real independence of the judiciary which gives safeguards and checks and balances.

Are you telling me in all seriousness that it is "manifestly wrong" that a 12 year old should not be driving a tractor and trailer?

Helen, I do see your point, but I don't think it's really helping.

The comparable situation (eg car seats) would always be shouted down on MN, as even if you don't agree you must do it because it's the law.

Rosie is being treated extremely harshly and unfairly.

What's happening is against the law and definately dangerous.

She's in a vehicle in such a manner that it is illegal for her to be in it.

What is the big difference between that and travelling in a car with no car seat?

FMP I think you should be proud of this thread.

Okay, I know that a few people are still coming on and saying YABU because their kids are allowed to play with the tractors but they are quickly having the law pointed out to them. Interestingly most of these people dont come back to defend their position.

As a result of this thread a lot of people have become aware of the law and had their assumptions challenged. Undoubtedly there will have been some conversations with family about what PRECISELY children will be doing when they go to stay with aunt/uncle/grandparents on the farm.

By having the courage of your convictions and posting in AIBU you have done some good.

Thanks Gnome - I didn't know the law, at the start of the thread. So at least I've been educated.

It would be nice if some of the people who ripped into me so comprehensively and flung the accusations of being cotton wool mum and only doing this to have a go at the ex would come back and apologise, but I think that is unlikely

And I still (and I must be terminally thick) because I still don't see the big difference between her driving a tractor illegally and a baby in no car seat. In some ways, her on the tractor is worse because if she crashes it's her that will bear responsibility legally.

Hmmm, I wonder what the HSE would make of it? Before you all jump up and down about 'elf and safety gone mad, I am the wife of a farmer and I have 2 young children who love to help their Daddy, however, farms are extremely dangerous places by virtue of the machinery and equipment in use.

If she was simply driving the tractor, and not hitching the trailer on, then I would a bit happier about it, but if she was actually hitching the trailer on herself then no way. Is she wearing a high vis vest over her overalls? Is there someone to supervise her? I know what life is like on our farm, they are all so busy that they wouldn't always have time to be watching over a 12 year old helping out.

I don't think you are being unreasonable. I know it's great fun to drive tractors but as I have said, farms are busy and dangerous places. Safety takes precedence over fun. If you are satisfied that her Dad or a grandparent can be with her at all times, fair enough.

Okay, so I have read all the other responses and it's clearly illegal for her to be doing it. I don't think you are being cotton wool mum or anything of the like, you are just trying to protect her. Hope you're okay.

Oh and it's not the yabu to be worried comments that have upset me - it's the lawyered up islington cotton wool mum you must tell her she's brilliant you are only doing this to get at your ex type comments that have really upset me.

She and her sister and their friend have just gone off on their bikes with snacks and tennis rackets to ride to the local courts and play tennis.

If I wanted to get at my ex, I would have done so years ago - I would have stopped access when it became apparent that the kids were being left at his mother's on a Friday night and collected on a Sunday, for example.

And I just do not understand how it is good parenting to sit back and let my child do something which is illegal and could impact on her for the rest of her life, if it goes tits up.

woodsies1975 - no high viz vest, nobody to supervise her, she's not hitching the trailer on but she does have to reverse up the yard, round a corner and up to the silo - as well as drive down lanes to the field and round the field with the harvester iyswim. HTH

And thank you

Not really a corner, kind of round a bendy bit