To Be pissed off hubby just called me a housewife....

[CoffeeDog]

SO yes i dont have a 'paid' job but we have 3 kids (5) and (twins 2) DH is rarther annoyed to find his favorite shirt is not ironed for his work piss up tonight and had a rant when i suguested he iron it himself.... including that ironing is part of my 'duties' as a housewife. TBH he's bloody lucky it was washed!!!

AIBU to suguest the various things he can do with said Iron?

You see, I'm not even sure society does disapprove. Oh, you get silly individuals ( see this thread ) but most straight thinking people see others as more than what they do between the hours of 9-5.

Put it this way, our school, library and village hall would pretty much cease to function without the gang of SAHM to volunteer!

Indigo - nice way to deflect discussion of superiority/smugness - more superiority/smugness. I agreed with your earlier points that the SAHP should be responsible for most of the housework / household management. I couldn't care less what your life circumstances are but I found and still find your attitude towards the checkout woman very superior.

Minipie, I have four children. Doing what I like all day comes after I have done what I need to do for them, and all of us.

Actually, I find it far more controlling and worrying when women want to SAH or WOH and their husbands show disapproval for their choices. Mine supports and encourage me to SAH but if I wanted to work, I jolly well would. And he knows it. Luckily for all of us, my palpatations at going to work would knock his into a cocked hat

And my DH loves his job so he's perfectly happy doing it all day. See, all happy

Still MissingDePoint and now boringmeshitlessbangingonaboutsupermarketwoman.

There is an expectation that once the DC are in school, that a SAHM should go back to work, even if it's a soul destroying, poorly paid job (because these are the jobs that fit in with school hours). God forbid a woman should have some time to herself during the day and maybe do something nice. It doesn't matter that she's given up pension rights/career progression/independent financial security to do something she a)believes in or b)enables her partner to work freely without child care concerns. If she doesn't rush back to work, she is seen as lazy or taking advantage of poor hard working partner.

Of course kids still need to be looked after after school and during holidays and when they are ill and WOHP need to travel for work, so it's not always practical to return to work (or possible to get back into previous profession).

Paid work has become the thing society uses to judge a persons worth. It's true that some of us care more about perceptions than others.

MrsDePoint and minipie

"Seriously, I can understand why staying in work makes sense financially in the long term (at least for those women with high earning potential) but as for it being easier? No way."

I think I was fair enough to point out that having not had kids (let alone having 3 kids under 5), minipie was a bit naive to make the above assumption. I was upfront that I have not tried the f/t working route, but I do know many people who have, and find it easier than being at home, for a multitude of reasons.

Applauds karma

It would be so detrimental to me, my children, husband, family and community for me to get paid work.

For some people, the financial benefits of working are paramount, for others they enjoy work. For others, they don't need the money and they enjoy the not work. Society needs both types of people to flourish.

Horses for courses.

MrsDePont - you are starting to come across a bit rabid. Leave it alone now will you - it's starting to make me squirm!

Indigo

That makes perfect sense, but it's not what you said in your earlier post?

You said before that you did pretty much what you liked all day - now you say, you do what you like after you've done what the family needs.

My point before was that a WOH DH would be entitled to be a bit annoyed if their SAH DW did what she wanted, instead of doing what the family needs.

Merry

I haven't tried being a SAHM. You haven't tried f/t WOH with DCs. Perhaps we could both acknowledge that we don't know which would be harder. As I said, it depends on the specific job and on the specific DCs. Just because the people you know found WOH easier, doesn't mean it would be easier for everyone.

Minipie, forgive me.

I did think it went without saying that I sort the family first rather than swing out of bed and swan off leaving everyone snoring.

Makes mental note to be more specific in future

Just to add my two cents worth...

I work FT with a 7.5 month old DS. I went back to work FT when he was 3.5 months. I did this because I got offered a new job which was going to offer me flexibility in an industry which can have brutal hours and be incompatible with having young children. I also had the benefit of a DH who supported me 100% and a mother and MIL who were willing to look after DS two days a week each, plus we have a nanny who does the 5th day. But mainly I did it because I knew I would be unhappy staying at home all day. I have worked very long and hard on my career and I love my job. HOWEVER, I did stay at home for almost 4 months and so I have experienced both sides. I found going back to work a relief and escape TBH. Something I would never have said before. I was always very quick to say that SAHM had it much easier than full-time workers but my experience (albeit with a very small demanding baby) was quite the opposite. I found being at home very demanding and tiring. Now I just do two jobs, but I don't think I necessarily have it harder than a full-time SAHM.

Long story short, if my husband complained that his shirts weren't ironed, I would tell him to iron them when he work day finished. Because as a SAHM your work day doesn't finish until after bedtime for the baby. So by then, he should be home from work and he can do it. [Qualifier - I did sometimes find I had big gaps of time when the baby was asleep where I could iron shirts, do laundry, cook dinner etc and I did this just to keep myself busy.]

I'm with MrsDePoint and minipie here.

"Actually, I find it far more controlling and worrying when women want to SAH or WOH and their husbands show disapproval for their choices. Mine supports and encourage me to SAH but if I wanted to work, I jolly well would."

I find it far more worrying that women feel they, and not their DH, are awarded this choice, and that this right to a choice (in the post-patriarchy) should be respected. And that the default position of fathers is to be a breadwinner. I'm not saying you've said that, but I've seen people take this position far too many times in the past when discussing ideas like this.

My own SIL is a case in point - happy that she gets to work 2 days a week to keep her own disposable income, yet moans about lack of career/doing more than her share of the housework, and yet when my BIL got made redundant last year she was up in arms about the fact that he asked her to consider going back to work for her old boss on a higher rate of pay than he'd be getting if the accepted the only job offer he had in 6 months. Luckily that job came with a promotion and he's now supervisor in the warehouse where he started on NMW, but that's by the by.

My point is that posts like yours back up this (scary) mentality that women should demand the benefits feminism promised (the right to a career, respect for the SAHM role, legal and financial independance, protection in the law from DV, "marital" rape as a recognised crime), yet aren't happy to accept the disadvantages i.e. that you may have to work 5 days a week and barely see your kids because you've been forced out to work outside the home due to circumstance or the disatisfaction of being at home all day and can't find a term time/PT job.

We cannot demand that choice without offering the same, for our husbands and fathers of our children to "do what they like" (after primary child caring duties are ticked off the list for the day) and SAH.

This is one of the fundamental problems I have with most (not all) posters who don't see that feminism has a long way to go before a choice about whether to stay at home is a genuine one. Society sets us up in far too a biased manner for any of this to be a real choice.

Perhaps I'm going slightly off tangent here, but the problems your post skirts around were too interesting to me to pass by without comment.

Are you saying women should work if their hubbies demand it, fgaaah? Or conversely, shouldn't?

I work part time, best of both world in some ways, worst of both in others but it pays the rent.

Manicinsomniac - sounds like we are the same! I totally agree with what you said. I went back to work F/T when my baby was 3.5 months old and i found those months at home hell on earth. I HATED not having structure to my day and not working.

I found being at home very very difficult though. So I wouldn't say working F/T is harder or easier than staying at home. I think they are just different. I work a full day in an office and then come home and do another 2 hours work looking after my son. So I don't see me as having it harder or easier than a SAHM. I just do the majority of my work in an office whereas they stay home and look after their children. It's all bloody hard! I just find working for me, is very very satisfying and I feel much more fulfilled if I am working than when I am not.

I'm saying that mutual respect where both parties work together as a team for the collective good of the family, and demand no special rights of the other adult in the relationship, is best, Butlinsbabe. There should be no "demand" or "expectation" to have to work outside the home OR inside it.

I genuinely don't think that going from a system where women were expected to stay at home (1950s) to being expected to go out to work (say, late 1980s - this was my own perception) to where we expect to have the right to do both (now?) without offering the same rights to our other halves is a good thing.

We cannot demand the right to stay at home or go out to work of our own choosing without surrendering some of the "benefits" to be gained in the 1950s/1980s setup described above. And it's why I feel alienated by a significant chunk of the feminist discussion topics I read on here.

I'm speaking as someone who, for a long time, fell into the trap of doing the SAHM thing (it made sense - I earnt less!) and my eyes were opened as (due to DH's employers being total arses about him taking emergency parental leave) we then went 3 days a week each.

Maybe I'm babbling and this would be a more appropriate discussion to delve into on the feminism board, but oh well

"There should be no "demand" or "expectation" to have to work outside the home OR inside it." - I hasten to add, within that family's own financial constraints, of course - for a lot of families it's purely a theoretical exercise to ponder if both should go part time, or one work fulltime, or one not - money dictates the decision in (I would guess) 99% of cases.

however, there are cases where it doesn't - when my DB was made redundant, SIL refused (yes, refused) to get a job which paid more than NMW, which he ended up having to go back to. That little incident sticks in my mind as we're talking about this.

Fgaaah, your SIL was just being daft, though. I don't think most people would behave like that. I'd like to give up work but my three days helps enormously. We muck in with chores on the days I work together.

Fgaaah my view is that no-one has a "right" to make a choice for themselves which necessarily limits the choices their partner has. If they want to make such a choice, they have to have their partner's agreement.

So, a person cannot choose to be a SAHP (and therefore reliant on their spouse WOH) without that spouse's agreement.

Likewise, a person cannot choose to be a WOHP (who is reliant on their spouse staying at home or working p/t in order to do the lion's share of the childcare/running the home) without that spouse's agreement.

So, for example, I would need my DH to agree to me stopping WOH or going p/t when we have DCs (if I wanted to) - because I wouldn't be able to do that without his income. But conversely, he also needs me to agree to him carrying on in his ridiculously demanding job - because there is no way he would be able do that job, and have children (which he wants), without me agreeing to take care of 80% of home related stuff.

Unsurprisingly, the conclusion is that couples need to agree these things between themselves!

YANBU but we housewives need to reclaim the term in a feminist sense for ourselves.

Here's why I don't mind being 'married to a house'

Houses don't cheat on you.
Houses don't lie.
Houses don't start petulant arguments about sod all, or hog the remote control every night.

There are of course many other, much worse things that husbands have done to their wives, through history that houses would never do, discounting fires, floods and persistant mould in damp corners which can of course pose serious health threats.

Yes, it should be a gender neutral issue. If you earned 10x your husband you might well find he stayed home not your or you hired a nanny. Plenty of women do earn a lot and also it is easier working.

I remember the 3 children under 4 stage . I remember the relief earlier than that of leaving the house before 8am (as the first baby was a crier). I remember that relief that she had her beloved daily nanny (who stayed 10 years) to help when we were at full time work although we both did make sure we were home on time and I woudl come straight in for a breastfeed. She was then crying (some babies do) for hours. I would get to bed at 10 for 2 hours whilst her father had her and then I'd take over and feed her etc. Then relief to leave in the morning. It was also easier when the 3 children were little too.

Of course it's very hard having lots of small children together you work or don't but going back to work when they are babies is not that hard. Someone the other day suggesting I was amazing on a business call (I wish they wouldn't) said it was always harder for women to work than men because they deal with washing. I pulled him on that. I have never lived in a sexist relationship, I said. I could have added just because I've breasts not a penis doesn't mean I have a unique ability to use a washing machine. I am more than happy to cede control of washing clothes and women who tolerate men who claim not to know how to wash clothes should sort them and their men out.

Xenia

I'm interested to know - what did you and your H do about housework and general home and child related admin while you were both working?

Childcare can be handed over to a nanny during the day (though as you say, you still have to do it during the night!) Basic cleaning can be handed over to a cleaner. But there is still loads of other stuff to do that a nanny/cleaner can't or won't do - dealing with bills, house maintenance, school related decisions, sorting out finances, things the DCs just "need Mummy" for, food shopping, etc etc. You know what I mean. It can't all be delegated. Who did that stuff? When did you and your DH find the time?

This isn't a trick question - as I said, I'm approaching the WOH/SAH/pt decision myself and trying to work out how it would all get fitted in if we both WOH full time in the City.

We certainly couldn't afford a cleaner then.

I think it's best to divide tasks rather than "help" each other.

My older children have all graduated now so I might not remember but my recollection of that earliest time was he did a lot to do with washing (he'd had his own house, had systems for dealing with his shirts etc when I married him so he would have more experience of household management than I did although anyone with half a brain can learn). In those days disposable nappies didn't work very well and were expensive. At one point we had at night 3 children in cloth nappies. He soaked and washed those and had his system for then trying to dry them. So I just didn't do that at all. I breastfed obviously.

I probably did most admin and our tax returns as I'm good at that. I got the girls' stuff ready for school and plaited their hair. We would share bed time stories one with one lot of chidlren and the other with others. I think I mostly dealt with post/admin. In those days there were no supermarket deliveries so presumably one of us did the food shopping once a week.

I certainly remember times when it was hard like having to get head lice stuff on girls with very very long hair . It's when you have extra jobs above your normal routine like that that it's harder. My children's father is a teacher although he always worked in h olidays but he had less work in holidays than otherwise so he would do some jobs then. We also bought two flats we let out when we had 3 smallish children and we would take shifts at the weekend if we were doing a painting job to wield the paint so both of us did painting.

Thanks Xenia, useful to hear about your experience. What were you and your DCs' father's hours like? I ask because ours are awful. I am just not sure when we would fit it all in. At the moment we are both getting home at 9-11pm. DH is working some of the weekend too. It's not like that all the time, but it is pretty frequently, and even when it's better it's not much better. And DH's hours are longer than mine so I'd end up doing more of the home stuff (though he is perfectly willing and capable, in fact more so than me).

Sorry to OP for the tangent.

It depended on the year (my oldest is 26 now). We both u sed to leave work by or before 6 but did quite a bit at home and then one of us often worked Saturdays whilst the other worked Sundays. We both did our normal jobs and in a sense a second job (plus children) too as he had a schol day which ended at 6 but may be took up 2 evenings a week but then also had about 30 out o schools pupils and various other things. We both have always worked exceptional hard and had the capacity for that and most peole are not like that. Everyone differs.

I remember a stage with the baby twins when I treated 5am to 7am on a Saturday morning as working hours before they woke for their breastfeed BUT I worked for mysel.f by then and earn a lot and love it so that is a massive incentive.

A lot of long hours are people being silly, messing around at work all day and not getting down to anything until 3 deliberately to avoid children's bed time. If you have a pattern 3 days a week one of you has to be home to collect from nursery/nanny then you just have to time table that in at work and work around it,. Make sure both of you do that even if you do worse at work in consequence as having chidlren is always on both sides about compormises but never let it be the woman only compromising

Why does he work longer hours and could you also work part of the weekend to make it more fair - so eg you work on Sunday mornings whilst he does child care just to ensure future patterns of sexism are not created and eg suggest to him if he doesn't awnt to hold a baby from 5am to 1am on Sundays that he considers advertising to find a local girl to look after the baby from 9 - 12 to give him a break but make sure he organises, it is his responsibility and he does it all.

Xenia do you always have very busy schedule or do you have some quite periods between?

I'm asking because i can work very hard and be very busy and sleep very few hours for few years but then i feel worn out and need to slow down for a bit. Then do another 'hard period', then another easier one. I couldn't do it for 30 years non stop. How do you do it? Do you exercise?

Also, i always wanted to ask you this question: do you ever say 'fuck it, i want to stay in bed/eat, drink/have long holidays' etc. By the way do you ever drink, or dance till late?

Sorry if the question sounds silly, i'm just curious.