AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

Well said Annie.

"And there are some others who are less bigotted but whose views I still find rather hmm. Things like removing hair from your body is wrong, wearing makeup or being pretty is wrong,"

Where have you heard anyone say these things?

Faulty, that is exactley what I'm saying! I also knew several women in college who went around spouting things like, "all men are bastads!" all the time. And various other completely sexist things, often claiming that all men were less intelligent that women, and so on. That really hasn't helped things. When people start attacking like this, it's not going to help your arguement. All it's going to do is make people fight back all the harder.

And I personally don't think it's going to be this faceless "patriarchy" you here about in the Feminism section, it will be when we stop viewing eachother as being funementally different in some way. When the media stops encouraging rediculous stereotypes and bad behaviour on boths sides. And once men stop acting as if we have to be dogs with lipsticks out to be considered straight then people can stop pretending that the world is some sort of giant orgy where everyone is constantly "up for it".

Fair enough Insomnia. You agree with some points not with others. You'd expect that really with any 'ism'.

Just one point -there are very few feminists - well, I've come across very few - who feel that women's roles are of less value than men's. They analyse the origin of the roles, whether they exist at all outside of society and wonder why women's things, no matter what it is, is devalued.

Seeker, it gets said about pubic hair a lot on here. Although I don't think it's anyone's business what another person does down there.

I believe in equality, but wouldn't considour myself a feminist.

If believing in equality makes me a feminist by default, I can live with that.

Insomnia - can I just point out, feminism is of the view that it's not the actual shaving of legs or painting of nails or wearing of pink that's wrong. It's the pressure placed on women by society to do these things in order to be accepted as valuable human beings. There's a big difference.

Ah, pubic hair. That's a whole other discussion!

I've never seen it said about arm pit hair of mascara on here though! Although I have been told my the Daily Mail that I disapprove of make-up because I'm a feminist!

Any other examples?

aw shucks SAF, thanks

I think that's the only time I've ever actually heard it. I'm not argueing about that, I'm just saing that it is an example that (in part) corroberates the old stereotype of hairy armpitted man haters. Being told that you shouldn't do something that you wish to do to yourself, whether you agree with it or not, is what they are saying about this whole radfem issue.

Please note - I really do not wish to debate pubic hair. It is none of my business and was only an example of what is said.

The problem is that people keep saing that feminists don't think women should wear make up, or paint htier nails or shave their legs, but when I ask whosays this and where? - the only example that comes back is that of shaving pubic hair. (Which I personally think is a feminist issue - but that's another thread.

I think it's al urban myth. But it's so wide spread and so cleverly disseminated that people belive it.

sorry - random italics. My rampant pubic hair got caught in the keyboard.........

if there is an ism or an ist in it i tend to get a bit at it but having said that i do get right pissed off about things and rant and people brand me that there word in the op's op. can you be a feminist if you have no idea what a pink screw driver is???

Can I just say, you don't have to be female to be a feminist.

Maybe what people do with their pubes is a real issue, maybe it isn't. It's not an arguement I wish to debate the rights and wrongs of.

I think the armpit and leg hair is an urban myth, on the hole. I have no idea where it came from. Perhaps it was done at first or something. Perhaps it was made up by men as a daft stereotype, I don't know.

Actually, my DP doesn't shave her legs in the winter. She says she only shaves them when she plans to where either shorts or a skirt or something. And I would class her as a feminist. She would not accept it if I tried to be dominating in some way, or whatever else chauvanistic men are supoosed to do. (I certainly would ask her to shave her pubes, anyway. It enrages her enough when someone else mentions it).

I think we do need to retain and use 'feminist' as a label.

I am a uni lecturer, and I teach several courses touching on gender, so I often see younger women debating whether or not they'd consider themselves feminists or not.

What I find really interesting is: a LOT of young intelligent women are interested in 'gender issues'. I have taught at two fair-sized institutions at opposite ends of the country, and at both, my gender-based classes are generally heavily over-subscribed, even ones that you'd think would be quite obscure.

But these young women tend not to want to call themselves feminists: they often say, 'Well, I'm not exactly a feminist, but...' or similar.

What I find kind of sad and troubling about that, and why I have started to feel quite bolshy about the need for a labelled feminism, is that I think we are approaching an era when these young women will need the coherence of an organised movement, yes, a label, to group themselves against some really disturbing changes.

It's not about wearing nailpolish and to shave or not to shave. (I do both.) It's about the fact that with fewer jobs, more women will be forced out of the workplace because no matter what they want to do, it is societally more acceptable for them to give up their jobs. It's about the fact that NicknDave are setting up some scary longterm precedents designed to push women out of positions of economic power. These things are real, and insidious, and I do think women under 30 need to think long and hard about whether they really have outgrown the need for feminism.

I think many think they have, and will find to their cost that they haven't :(

Ooops . I meant I certainly would not ask her to shave her pubes

"What I find kind of sad and troubling about that, and why I have started to feel quite bolshy about the need for a labelled feminism, is that I think we are approaching an era when these young women will need the coherence of an organised movement"

The problem with an organised movement is that there needs to be some agreement on what they actually want to achieve. And although in theory all feminsit want the same thing (to be treated equal) in practise it isn't that simple.

Understandably not everyone is comfortable with having someone else represent them, when they aren't necessarily in full agreement.

In my direct experience the whole painting of nails and make up issue is no myth and was delivered to me BY a Feminist.

Although I acknowledge that she was very odd.

Perhaps its not really undertanding what feminism is all about.

Until I joined MN I considered myself to be a feminist my job involves championing womens rights in the workplace. Reading some of the threads on the feminist board has made me realise that I know Jack shit about it from an intellectual level. Disagreeing with some of the very strong opinions held by some made me doubt whether I am actually a feminist. I'm also not keen on Germaine Greer.

I think the truth is I am a Feminist but I'm not informed enough to feel confident to call myself one. I promise to read more around the issue and to actually read a book by GG rather than just what I read on wikipedia and the newspapers.

I suppose you don't have to agree with everything either do you? I consider myself a labour supporter but I disagreed with quite a lot of their past policies.

Emp for me it's less about having a definite goal in mind and more about having a common sense of norms, of resistance, certain basic principles - does that make sense as a differentiation??

So, less 'rights for lesbians to have IVF on the NHS' (though I believe in that!!) and more 'we think society should generally support girls' educational achievements' and 'we think men and women should have the same opportunities' etc. For me, it's more about creating a climate where women feel empowered to speak up for their rights in different situations, than about creating a single coherent movement with common things it wants to achieve.

...Am I being clear? hard to express the difference I see there!

Peasant, I am never quite sure whether labour are really more "feminist" than the tories. After all, The first and only Female PM was a Tory. Compare that to "Blairs babes" (yuk)

Anyhow, I am a SAHM who likes men, especially my brothers, sons, husband, male friends,BIls etc. All good men, so that colours my view. I also like wearing make up and skirts. And I am also a feminist.

I would not introduce myself as "Chandon the Feminist", however, if the subject ever comes up, or people ask me, I will always say without apology that I am.

Before becoming a SAHM I worked in the fairly male dominated IT Industry, made a career really. But now am at home and do another very important job in raising my kids. I am not apologetic about being a SAHM feminist .