AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

"If there was no difference there wouldn't be all the threads on MN which start 'I am so disappointed I wanted a girl.......' They always appear to be so that the mother can go shopping, be best mates at the grandmother stage and buy pretty clothes and have long hair. There is lots of bemoaning pink and princesses but women obviously buy it. Businesses are into what sells and pink must sell. "

Feminism has it's place in changing women's minds too. I agree that too many women want to make their girls overly-'feminine' - as if there is so woman-club that they can't wait to enrol their DDs into. But it is hard to resist the siren-call of it all but in the end it only matters if you make it a set of rules for your daughter, not one of a series of choices.

Oh yes, Steve Biddulph gets a shed load of criticism for his Raising Boys and he has been called anti-feminist for suggesting that boys do best with one main carer and for suggesting they could do with a male role model, especially as they get older. Seems like common sense to me to accept that boys are different to girls - it doesn't make them unequal though.

However, having been embroiled on many a Steven Biddulph threads I don't want this one to be side tracked so I won't go on but it does seem that you can't ever focus on boys because it is unfair to girls but not vice versa.

Raising boys is a fantastic book - really helped me.

Boys need a male role model-my DS1 found his own. I have been in trouble on MN because at 2 yrs old he wanted 'a new daddy'-apparently at 2yrs of age he should have been PC enough to know that '2 mummies were just as good'! (I'm sorry, but at 2 yrs old he had plenty of females in his life and it was a man he wanted).

I suspect that a lot of women don't want boys because they are very physical and involve mud!

I think there is so much confirmation bias in this world - some see our society as so easy for males, with so many obstacles and lack of opportunities for girls. Others see misandry everywhere, with boys made to feel ashamed of their maleness while women are seen as just perfect. There are voices from here, institutionalized advantages there.... it's easy to have your worst fears confirmed all the time, harder to see the wood for the trees.

I think men clearly had more power over women in the past - and there are a few vestiges left to sort out, but the main mission has, remarkably, been achieved. Because men listened, in part. But now we have an army of warriors not sure if the war is over, or when to stop, or in which direction to go. And I think we have a substantial proportion of the last few generation of boys/men who have grown up largely (but not completely) 'politically correct', not racist and pro-equality - and they still feel bashed, they are mocked, they are aware of unfairnesses towards them. If both sides feel like victims then we are in trouble, because victimhood justifies anything. Both sides, I believe, really need to know that the 'other side' cares about their struggle, or it wounds on some primal level. And that can turn to hate.

So I'm not taking sides.

Niecie, I would consider myself a feminist but it isn't all I am. There are also other areas of human rights and social inequality that concern me and that I am involved with. I think that is very common for feminists. Feminism is the name I use for one area of inequality - it isn't meant to suggest that I am unconcerned with all of the other areas of inequality.

I think they all need their own area of focus. Sometimes we have to think about how areas combine, but I wouldn't want to refer to gay rights, sustainability rights or any other issue as 'equalism' because for me that doesn't have a particular focus on what the issue is.

This is the same in law. We don't just have a law that says everybody must be treated equally - that would be too vague. We have specific laws for the rights of women, and for people with disabilities so that the specific issues are addressed in the workplace and in wider society.

Biddulph wasn't suggesting role models for primary age but teenagers, to keep them on the straight and narrow.

I'm all for boys having a male role model if it means I don't spend all my waking hours talking about football and cars (I hate football but quite like cars but not that much)

MillyR - I would love to answer your post but I really have to fit in a trip to Sainsburys before I get DS2 from school. I will be back so please excuse me if the conversation has moved on!

(Goodness that sounds bad in the context of a feminism thread - quite the little housewife )

""I also disagree strongly with some of the more radical feminist views."

LIKE WHAT? PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!"

Off the top of my head, and based on what I've been told by people who do identify as feminists. (Disclaimer: Obviously not representative of all feminists)

• That wanting transexuals to be treated equally is pandering to men's needs over women's needs. And that being trans is in some way directly opposing womens rights.
• The idea that all people who say they are raped are telling the truth. I am well aware that false rape claims are very rare, but that doesn't mean they do not exist. It also makes a mockery of "innocent till proven guilty"
• That women who enjoy BDSM are doing it only for the men.
• That even when performing to an audience of only women, a performer is still somehow doing it only for male pleasure.
• That men have had it easy for so long that now their needs deserve to be ignored.

I think that it has worked well in that my DCs and their friends, male and female don't see differences and I think they would be fairly amazed at the things written in the name of feminism and then shrug their shoulders and forget it. The world moves on, a lot has been achieved (there is always more) but I can think of more worthwhile causes in the name of equality.

Boys need strong male role models - plenty of conclusive evidence to back that up.

Empusa, I don't agree with any of the statements you have made either, and they are regularly debated on the feminist section. I don't think there is any kind of consensus on them, but I think it is well worth talking about what these things mean to women's equality and what the wider context of them is. Part of discussing that means that the views of radical feminists get put forward.

Here is a starter for 10 of a "Non Capital F Feminist" set of feminist principles:

1. I like boys and men on the whole, and I just don't buy that men are all bastards and rapists, or that even the majority are. And lets admit it - some women are also conniving, controlling bitches - so the automatic presumption that "men are wrong" is itself wrong. Each case needs to be treated on its merit.
2. I want equality....as far as we practically can, as my experience with DCs tells me there are real physiological, developmental and psychological differences between the sexes no matter what some up in the clouds academic claims
3. A person is presumed innocent until proven guilty under law, even if it is a rape case.
4. Wanting to look good is for me dammit, it's not throwing away my principles to the patriarchy.
5. I will read what I bloody well like, listen to what I want to, go where I want and do what I want to do, and no one - patriarchy, PR people or patronising feministas - have the right to shout me down.
6. I want moderation and inclusivity in my feminism, not extremism and "my way is the only way". Anyone who plays the controlling/vituperative/I'm right/etc card on MN is not a "real" feminist, they are just narrow minded extremists.
7. I want feminism to pressure for things that matter to the majority of sensible women who just want to bring up their families in peace and security, not for causes that impact a tiny % of misfits women.
8. I want my feminism to be big enough to admit it has made mistakes in the last 30 years
9. Freedom of speech rules, and that includes stuff we may not like - porn, people who disagree with us etc - and I can't keep up with hate the whole PC game

10. I'm proud of what women have achieved in the last 100 yaers - and the ones who did the great things were going after the big ideas, not petty shots. We need to carry that torch.

There - now I have it off my chest, I'll put my bra back on :o

"My response is that whatever way the enemy choses to interogate and torture you, none of them is any worse than another. Torture is torture. Is there such as thing as 'easy' torture, that the enemy would wheel out just for the men and leave the really nasty torture just for the women they capture? Are they thinking of the human rights of the men? No of course not."

Please chose from the following options:

1. Being forced to eat shit
2. Being repeadley punched/beaten with horrid objects
3. Being repeatedley gang raped

Sorry, I know it sounds sexist, but this is the type of thing they will do. Being beaten is fine. I know it's possible to rape a man, but it would probably be the first choice for a woman. I'd call being beaten easy torture.

Again, sorry if it is sexist, but you won't be fighting in no honorable battle. There is no such things.

(And no, I'm not using a "fairer sex" arguement. Woman on the Russion front were known to cut off the penises of their enemies as choke them to death with them. But, for some reason, it comes down to sex again.)

Barney.

The theme song from the big purple dinosaur horror is played on a an endless loop. Real torture.That would do it for me.

I don't see that we entirely need to get bogged down in the minutae of torture, do we?

"Seeker asks a lot of questions but doesn't seem to answer many - >"

Must have missed where I was asked any. Will always answer anything I'm asked.

Omigawd I totally agree.

MillyR Like I say, not all feminists believe these things. But I have noticed that if an opposing view to those comments is brought up the responses to tend to be quite OTT. Including accusing people of supporting the patriarchy, being anti-feminists, being misogynists, or being rape apologists.

@AtomicBum this is precisely the sort of sillyness that turns me off "Feminism".

All you need to ask is: Torture - good or bad?

Bad.

OK, next......

It was a quick list. I could think of plenty more (maybe drilling a small hole in each of your teeth and pouring ice-cold water into them? Or putting a burning candle again your arm and leaving without asking anything. Return 10 minutes later and then ask a question?), but they were just a few quick examples that I know have happened. And I really wouldn't want to be forced to eat shit.

Yes, rape is about humiliation. It's about degredation, and not necessarily about sexual pleasure. We all know this. But is as likely for the men that are captured? Perhaps we should find out how many prisoners of war are subjected to sexual forms of abuse.

The only point I made about the front line is that we are just not there yet, because this sort of thing would come up first. Maybe when someones gender is not the first thing you notice, it will work. I'm not saying it shouldn't. And besides, I was merely sharing the answers I've been given when this subject has come up. I don't necesarrily agree or disagree. TBH, I've never been to war and have only heard/read stories on the subject.

Milly's post at 14.25 says what I wanted to say. I don't think anyone should think that feminists aren't aware of any other issues, they might even do more on those other issues than on feminist ones. Why does it have to be one thing or another? I hope no-one doubts my sincerity on e.g. gay rights issues because I ALSO feel strongly about women's rights. And like another poster I have a close relative who is (strongly suspected) AS and I work bloody hard to make his life better. I don't tell him to stick it because he's a man, that would be absurd. Similarly I give the small amount of money I can afford to a charity that works on human rights issues, including but not limited to feminism.

Being aware of one form of discrimination surely makes you, if anything, more aware of other forms.

None of this means that feminism isn't important. Do you watch the news? Things are changing but not fast enough, and crucially they are changing BECAUSE of feminism, if feminists hung up their metaphorical dungarees and went home you would see the rights of women roll back before your very eyes.

"None of this means that feminism isn't important."

No one is saying that. Just that, for them, they do not feel the need to identify as feminist.