AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

revoltingPeasant Makes perfect sense, and that's what feminism should be about (IMO). However as not everyone sees it that way, it all gets a bit complicated.

cassie I think actually is one problem with feminism: it can be intellectually elite. It started I think largely as a theoretically based movement in university-educated women and as a result, it can have a pretentious/ precious/ inaccessible feel about it.

If you want something accessible, you could try Naomi Wolf's early writing. Or try leafing through some Ms magazine (American but possibly available online?). A really funny early feminist piece (1910s) is Cicely Hamilton's Marriage as a Trade.

Because when I read some opinions on MN about what it means to be a feminist, and what beliefs are compatible with femnism, I don't share those viewpoints. I have beliefs that many claim are incompatible. I used to believe I was a feminist but I have to bow out now and void the word from my identity, because I am not that narrow-minded.

chandon and indeed you shouldn't be!! That is the issue: many younger women I see think they need to say stuff 'but I like men' or 'but I want to quit work when I have a baby'. For me, it's not 'I'm a feminist but...', it's

'I'm a feminist AND'!

:)

TheAtomicBum wrote - "once men stop acting as if we have to be dogs with lipsticks out to be considered straight"

Really?

I do not call myself a feminist because I don't think it's helpful any more. I find it sad that we still have to have separate movements for every section of society to pursue equality for their own sub-group, whether it be feminism, racial equality, disability rights, etc. I believe that everyone should have equal opportunities, not equal opportunities for women but equal opportunities for everyone. I find it a bit galling to be accused of finding DV or rape acceptable, or disrespecting the efforts of feminists throughout history simply because I do not operate from this perspective myself, or adopt this label for myself.

so what you are all saying is that feminist give feminism a bad name?

I've been a feminist very explicitly since my teens, I am one at work, along with many others who also call themselves feminists.

The mumsnet feminist boards are pretty offputting, even for those of us whose identity is totally bound up with being a feminist. Recently I could see on a mumsnet thread, for perhaps the first time in my life, why a woman wouldnt' want to identify with feminism. it's quite dispiriting.

Not necessarily spooks

I am howeer sayng that some of the most vocal feminists seem to have grudges or very unusual definitions of what feminism means that they sell as an essential part of feminism that gives feminism a bad name.

Same actually as you get in most other groups- faiths, politics, whatever: and the more unusual views are going to be most noticed.

After all, as mum of 4 boys I am so not going to be intersted in any misandry. A feminist once told me that my severely disabled son had it eaasier than any women becuase he was male, even though he will always need a carer etc, and I should abndon campaigning for access to provision for him and address myself to her definition of feminism. That's extreme but it's not going to make me want to engage with her group is it?

Egalitarianism all the way. I am interested in equalityof value and opportunity, not bizarre offshoots designed to make other people look bad. Actually the worst examples are a bitAnimal farm; some are more equal than others.

Thing is, we all know that's not really feminism. But feminism does need people to enage and putting people outside the group works against that

"Actually the worst examples are a bitAnimal farm; some are more equal than others."

I've found that too.

It is difficult, I do want to identify myself as feminist, but I've found that sometimes it's actually counter productive, in a way that talking about feminist principles without the label isn't.

vesuvia - do you disagree? I've been told off by other blokes for not trying to chat some girl up or leer at them. Even when I say, but I'm engaged and have to children. They don't seem to understand why this is a problem, because they seem to believe that, for some reason, we have to constantly act like this or people will think you are not strait. It's daft, and is an attitude that needs to be addressed in order for our society to move on. During adolescence, fair enough. We're all learning to control our hormones. But after that, if you do not learn to control them, you end up acting like that.

" so what if a man or a woman wear make up, or nail polish, shave or not to shave etc... what is all that got to do with equality"

Precisely. If it was OK for a woman or a man to wear or not to wear make-up it wouldn't be a big deal. But generally it isn't. An unshaved woman is unfeminine. And a made-up man is a 'poof'. And that is all about equality.

It's an act, though, I think. Men encourage eachother to behave like that and so does the media, as does everyone whose ever believed that they cannot control themselves. Because if you excuse any behaviour, you allow it.

One thing I am not particularly keen on is the The Personal is Political aspect it's like saying no woman can do anything they enjoy unless it has rad feminist approval otherwise your just holding women back.

I'm sure that I am a feminist, have always been one- as has my mother and grandmother-however finding the feminist threads on here has made me unsure!
I can't stand prosing on about the 'patriarchy', being put upon, being property of a man etc when I have always been equal. I am not going to be a victim for anyone.
I also can't stand the attitude of some of them. I have arguments on other threads, but I am never patronised the way that I am on there. I am not going to name, names- but men have never patronised me the way I am by some of them. I get patted on the head as 'there,there exotic, let me put in in words of one syllable so that you can understand how deluded you are' Urggh! (rant over-thanks for starting the thread and letting me vent!)

Radfems are just another bunch of control freaks who are blinkered and closed minded. Most movements end up this way, controlled by the loons or run as a racket

You cannot deny that some feminists are man hating loons, you just can't. Doesn't make feminism wrong or irrelevant though, just means that some people who call themselves feminists hate men.

If you think of say, the Labour party, I agree with many of its fundamental tenets from when it started. I liked some of the aspects of New Labour too. However I fundamentally disagreed with them on the Iraq war, with Blair's love affair with Bush, with their policies on terrorism and reducing everyone's civil liberties, with introducing tuition fees, and think they seriously mismanaged the economy which made the results of the banker-made crisis worse.

It's slightly how I feel towards feminism.

'Cept the feminists didn't invade Iraq or nearly bring down capitalism. Maybe if they had.....
Get your point though. Basically agreeable enough but with some elements you don't agree with. Can't say fairer than that, I suppose.

Insomnia, what did you actually like about them? As an arguement, it makes sense. And yes, people claiming they are feminists when they are actually misandrical devalues the idea that feminism was set up to advocate the equality of women.

TheAtomicBum

I think they made improvements in primary school education and the NHS, I like Surestart, tax credits (though they may have been better ways of achieving the same) minimum wage, more teachers, doctors, nurses and police, creation of civil partnerships, promotion of gay rights and equality agenda.

My point is that you listed all the things you didn't like, and forgot about anything good. Any good labour did will soon be forgotten in favour of being anything the public didn't like. This is exactly how the hairy-bichy-feminist-who-puts-down-anyone-who-doesn't-agree-with-her steperetype has come from. People are starting to forget the good stuff that feminism has brought about and are only remembering what they don't like about it (or rather, some of the people, anyway).

Which is, in the end, why it might actually be better to stop slapping labels on everyone on this issue. Stand up for your rights, be careful about what points are being remembered. People tend to remember the things that grated or angered them the most, not the things that were quietley gotten right.

I'd never want to refer to myself as a feminist, I hate the term. I believe in equality and fairness and am happy to be known as supporting that. Feminism isn't about womens' rights, it's about equal rights... or have I misunderstood?

I think some 'feminists' have picked up the ball, run off with it, labelled and profile themselves as 'uber feminists', 'radfems' or whatever and anybody whose views don't match theirs will be shouted down and won't be 'accepted'. I'm not interested in fanaticism of any kind and have no time for people who don't appear to know what they think without massive consultation of their views.

Why is there such a desire to label oneself and anybody else?

I do still label myself as feminist in real life. I've given up on here, it's frustrating to have my feminism devalued by the self-appointed arbiters of Mumsnet feminism.

In real-life, I'm more comfortable saying "I'm a feminist" to men than to women. To me, that says something's gone horribly wrong with the way feminism, as a whole, presents itself to women.

I am insistent on equal rights, equal freedoms, equal opportunities, equal responsibilities and equal rewards.
Equal means of equal value, not identical.

I am anti-sexist.
That should mean 'I am a feminist' to any woman with a brain.
Shame it doesn't any longer :(