AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

Well it may have taken nearly 1000 posts, but I think a lot of good has come from this thread.

Despite all the disagreements and the fact that many are still unresolved, I think two important breakthroughs have been made:

1. More feminists realise that many people who do not identify as feminists are not against feminist goals.

1. More people who do not consider themselves feminists realise that people who do call themselves feminists do not all follow one homogenous doctrine and that there is room for many different types of feminism.

That's a good thing, surely!

We could win any war in two weeks if we sent over the Mumsnet Rad-Fem Brigade.

(Joke/compliment/not an attack!)

Just to add as well, with regards the MN feminism section in particular, I too have that section well and truly hidden after trying to engage and being called an anti-feminist for not toeing the party line.

Yes, it is true that it is just a few posters that attack like that, but as with any form of bullying, it is easier to just walk away than to let myself get wound up by their attitude.

Someone said just report them, but as Niecie said up the thread:

"... it is difficult to report quite a lot of the posts that put me off because they are not overtly attacking, they just patronise and belittle. If it weren't for the fact that others seem to have found the same thing I might think I was imagining it. By the time I had worked through what was really going on the moment would have passed. Feeble but true.

I couldn't agree with this more. The attacking is never childishly nasty, it is a lot more sinister than that - akin to the perpetrators in emotional abuse relationships who always remain calm and make their victims think that it is their fault. When they are called on it they say "but we were the ones being attacked".

The final straw came for me on the Irish Sex Law thread which discussed the fact that boys could be prosecuted for having consensual underage sex with their girlfriends and one of the stalwart posters of the feminism board, who is often lauded with helping people to change their minds about feminism and embrace the ideology, came out with a set of posts that managed to be both misandric and misogynistic all at the same time. It was quite a feat and I would have been impressed if it hadn't made me so bloody angry!

The Bristol Palin thread, which I accidently wondered onto when it appeared in most popular just confirmed that while some these 'knowledgeable' and lauded feminists were being given so much credence for their opinions, then MN Feminism was certainly not something I would want to be engaging in on a regular basis.

It's sad really because this thread (apart from the few hours it spent in feminism) has shown that reasoned debate can be had and I've really enjoyed reading it.

sunshineandbooks, I hope your optimism is appropriate. The thread has been amazingly civil, and I don't want women to be fighting women, or women to be fighting men, This is a site for mums, and we have to think about what world we want our children to grow up in. They willl see and learn from how we sort out these issues, whether its by endless entrenched warfare or with peaceful talk and negotiation. And chocolate biscuits.

I hope it's with chocolate biscuits.

Shine, I think a lot of other issues have been brought up and glossed over everyones standing on it, and hopefully it's given everyone an idea of general opinions on the subjects.

Hopefully a few more people will venture into the discussions and not be so afraid to speak their opinions on accout of a few excessively aggressive posters.

Lastly - I'm glad the feminist section is here - it's a place where they can all congregate and chat together, that's great. I don't have to engage with them or take a blind bit of notice of anything they say ( and I don't 99% of the time )
So It works both ways - complete equality.

"I also disagree strongly with some of the more radical feminist views."

LIKE WHAT? PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!

Just been catching up with where this thread has gone.

Disagreeing with the on-line behaviour of some of the feminists on MN does not turn me away from feminism, or make me stop identifying as a feminist or stop me from being thankful for the work that feminists have done. Feminism has allowed me to be well educated, have a career and be judged on my abilities, not on my gender and that is something that a topic on a chat forum isn't going to change.

What it does do however is keep me away from a section of the site that, on paper, should be at the top of my list of places to visit on here as I dislike any environment where there is a culture that allows women to be belittled or dismissed for their opinions. Saying so does not make me anti-feminist, misogynist or somehow lacking in understanding.

Feminism is important for all women, so I wish I had solutions to offer. Thankfully, there are many more ways of engaging with women about feminism than a chat topic.

TheAtomicBum - "Plus, it may sounds sexist, but the other reason for when they get caught. You're up against people who don't view you as having any human rights at all. What do you think they are going to do to a woman they catch? What method of interogation do you think they would prefer?"

My father who is the biggest misogynist I have ever met, uses your argument for keeping women off the front line so yes it does sound sexist.

My response is that whatever way the enemy choses to interogate and torture you, none of them is any worse than another. Torture is torture. Is there such as thing as 'easy' torture, that the enemy would wheel out just for the men and leave the really nasty torture just for the women they capture? Are they thinking of the human rights of the men? No of course not.

If you read my link on family heirarchy, seeker, you will find it. I think it fairly radical for a mother to tell her DD that she can't live with a man and be safe because statistics show that there is a huge risk of being abused or murdered. (nothing like the risk of a car accident but no one stops going out in cars). It is sheer paranoia to then bring in the fact that statistics would be worse because they are skewed by transgender people.

Exoticfruits - that is the belief of an individual person. It's not what feminists believe.

The feminist threads on here don't put me off being a feminist, but I can't stand any environment where it is 'survival of the fittest' and the bullies win-and they certainly do on there.
Never before have I been told 'your remarks are not welcome' -how can they?-I would welcome lots of comments similar to mine and it is refreshing to find them on here. (I have read elsewhere -'it is a pity that this is a public thread' but at least they understood that they had no rights to vet comments.)

By elsewhere-not feminist threads.

Seeker; what are feminists still fighting for exactly -
What are your top five goals? any political movement will have goals and aims - what is it you're still striving for in terms of genuine attainment?

"I also disagree strongly with some of the more radical feminist views."
"LIKE WHAT? PLEASE SOMEBODY TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!"

A few, off the top of my head.

Men are the problem. The world/society would be better off without them. (This is extreme and radical, but it is one rad-fem position, is it not?)

All gender differences are social programming.

Boys should not be allowed to watch action movies, or play 'war' because that's violence and also conditioning.. even if he really wants to and his daddy loved that stuff and isn't a violent monster.

This is a new one to me, btw - that we live in a 'rape culture' where sexist jokes lead to institutionalized rape, which society encourages and glorifies.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

That Amazon is secretly promoting rape products via it's evil word cloud of rape
shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/02/looking-for-rape-products-try-amazon.html

There's probably more, but stuff like that I am either not in agreement with or actively think is wrong or silly.

Everyone backed her, seeker and they were at great pains to tell me that they were saying the same (they were not). I was accused of asking her irrelevant questions, told there was no need for her to reply and questions were answered in her name. I was ridiculed into the bargain and everyone seemed to think that she had a normal response and there was no suggestion of counselling.

"Carmina, why don't you think women should be fighting on the front-line in Afghanistan while their husbands are at home with the kids? What if the woman is more combative, better at team-work and following orders than the man, while he's a better household manager and carer?"

I have no problem with having women on the front line of a fight. If your going to it, though, they better be able to carry 50-75 lbs of armor and equipment, and meet the same physical fitness standards that the men do.
In the US, military women are not expected to meet the same standard. So what happens when they have to physically carry their buddy (possibly with all their gear) 500+ yards through heavy fire?
Even in the U.K. there was a case recently that outlined the fact that standards for such professions as firefighters and police have had to be lowered to admit more women in those jobs.
Really? Is this where feminism and political correctness has gotten us? We have to LOWER the bar for women to compete? We have to open ourselves up to inherent dangers in not having our military and rescue personnel at top physical condition, knowing darn well that there are situations that require a high standard of physical ability?

I'll say it again, so no one misunderstands. I have no problem with my sisters being in those jobs, doing the same things, on the front lines. but I think if they want to be there, they better be able to meet the standards that have been shown to make some of the greatest fighting forces in the world (kudos to the British military)

Hear hear Tina!

Actually I am mulling my views having read pretty much all of this thread (it has been good, hasn't it) and I think Lenak's post at 11.59 encapsulates my point of view in that I reckon I am happiest with the equalist label. The definitions in her post pretty much summed up me.

Women aren't equal there is still work to be done but in doing it, I don't think we can ignore all the other groups who don't have equality on the way.

I have two boys which probably colours my opinions a great deal, and whilst I want them to see women as equals and make sure that they do, I am also aware that my DS1 who has AS is not getting equality either. He does and will continue to struggle all his life because he is different. How can I ignore the inequalities that he faces just because he is male? Why would I want to identify with some feminists who would rather further their own cause to the detriment of other peoples struggles with inequality? Does that not make their thinking as bad as the patriarchy they profess to hate so much - putting themselves ahead of all others? I don't call that equality.

And of course there in equalities in so many other areas of life, it isn't just about the 2 closest to my heart. It seems almost inhuman to ignore them.

I have 3 DSs and I hate the way they seem designed to become hate figures-regardless of their thoughts and actions.
There are umpteen books about bringing up girls and no one bats an eye but someone writes a book about raising boys and it is 'how dare they? -why can't it apply to boys? I haven't read it-mine are past the age -but it would seem to me to be helpful, I can't see that pretending there are no differences is helpful. I live in an all male house, I have to keep explaining that I am not odd-'it is just what women do'. I think that schools now need to urgently address the question of underperforming boys.

If there was no difference there wouldn't be all the threads on MN which start 'I am so disappointed I wanted a girl.......' They always appear to be so that the mother can go shopping, be best mates at the grandmother stage and buy pretty clothes and have long hair. There is lots of bemoaning pink and princesses but women obviously buy it. Businesses are into what sells and pink must sell.

I do think that women ought to start at home with their own family-change would soon come. Leave it to the mythical 'they' and it never will.

Sorry-the opposite-I meant -why can't it apply to girls!

Seeker asks a lot of questions but doesn't seem to answer many - >

I think that I would put the equalist label on myself. It is hardly equal for a man to be accused of being a possible abuser because he is male.(no other reason)