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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

1001 replies

seeker · 29/06/2011 23:37

.....not a feminist?

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 04/07/2011 11:46

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LeninGrad · 04/07/2011 11:48

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Hullygully · 04/07/2011 11:48

WE SHALL OVERCOOOOOMMMMMEEEEE

HRHMJOFMAGICJAMALAND · 04/07/2011 11:50

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Carminagetsprimal · 04/07/2011 11:54

You'll never get 50/50 equality in everything regarding the sexes - it's impossible. And sometimes you have to treat people differently to treat them equally - I don't, for example think women should be fighting on the front-line in Afghanistan while their husbands are at home with the kids - should more women be encouraged to Join up and die for their country? Is that the equality feminists want?
Wrt the objectifying of women and porn. good looking men are used by the media just as much as women - boy bands for example - when do you ever see one with five fat uglies? Never. And if women wanted male porn it would be there. It's a supply and demand business - they'll make money out of anything, man women or goat.

garlicnutter · 04/07/2011 11:57

Carmina, why don't you think women should be fighting on the front-line in Afghanistan while their husbands are at home with the kids? What if the woman is more combative, better at team-work and following orders than the man, while he's a better household manager and carer?

MarySueFTW · 04/07/2011 11:57

To the member with the really long name whose post I now can't find, I am still following the thread and had every intention of giving your post the considered response it deserved. Sorry if my slowness to post seemed rude, I'm all for keeping the civil parts of the debate going - if women fall apart over this, it would be a shame. I'll respond to your posts when I find it, or if you want to repost x

The 'environmentalist analogy' some pages back works for me - while I am glad the world has become much more concerned with environmental issues over the last few decades, I found the movement increasingly unreliable in its science, used scaremongering tactics and proposed unworkable solutions that made me flinch from calling myself an environmentalist.

TheAtomicBum · 04/07/2011 11:58

Carnin, WRT your arguement about the media. I had this discussion with DP a while ago. To settle it, we put various famous names into the search engines in google. The males were nearly always fully dressed. The females were nearly always half dressed (or sometimes wearing virtually or indeed just nothing with pettles covering bits). The point is that the media has the female singers looking young and sexy and have had their day by the time they can be called adults.

LeninGrad · 04/07/2011 11:59

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lenak · 04/07/2011 11:59

I have been following this thread for a few days now - read the first few pages, missed a bit in the middle and have been catching up since yesterday.

Yesterday afternoon, I typed quite a long post with my views only to press post at the exact time it moved and the whole thing went up in smoke! However, given what occured after the move, I'm sort of glad it didn't go on. Having just read to the end from the move, there was a definite (not nice) change in tone while it was in feminism! I never thought a thread would get more reasoned debate in AIBU Shock.

I won't rehash what I tried to say yesterday. HRH has said most of it probably in a much more elegant way than I ever could, but I do want to make a couple of points:

I do not identify as a feminist. It is not because I do not think that there are still equality issues for women, it is because I choose not to associate myself with only one school of thought in the fight against inequality. I also disagree strongly with some of the more radical feminist views. Some feminists try to argue that feminism itself is about equality for all, not just women, but in my experience and opinion I find that is simply not the case.

Catitainahatita summed it up in two of her posts:

Feminists focus on the ways women suffer violence and will try to understand why women are themselves violent. They say studying the same phenonoma in men is not their business.

and

... as a feminist I care that boys are not always well served by the current education system. However, as I have said before, my interest as a feminist is to promote girls' rights and leave the promotion of male interests to male action groups.

Now I understand that this may be her particular brand of feminism, but from everything I have read, both on MN and academically, it is a fair summation of feminist thinking.

For me, I do believe that understanding male suffered and perpetrated violence is as important as understanding it from the female perspective because I believe that the only way it can be reduced is understanding the complete picture. I also disagree with promoting girls rights and leaving the promotion of male interests to male action groups when it comes to education because I believe that we should fight for the rights of all children regardless of gender.

I want inequalities addressed wherever they appear - regardless of gender, race, physical disability or sexual preference. I do not value one group more than another, I will not fight for one group more than another and that is what egalitarianism (or equalism) is about.

sunshineandbooks Sun 03-Jul-11 23:48:32 said:

"...the "I'm an equalist" explanation always makes me feel like those who say it are in denial of the fact that women still face a lot of (often unseen) disadvantages in life (though I am prepared to admit that I may be interpreting that denial unfairly BTW, as the word 'equality' has heavy connotations in feminist theory). Perhaps I have unfairly been labelling the "equalists" with faults they don't have and that's good to know.

This idea that someone who calls themselves an equalist must not accept that there are still inequalities for women, seems to be a myth that is largely perpetrated by the feminist movement. Being an equalist does not mean that I think that equality has been achieved, it simply means I believe that everyone is equal. Not that they are currently treated that way, but that they should be.

Some links which explain it better:

What is equalism - Carol Wohlfeil

[Equalists] do not believe that equality can be achieved if changes are the product of accountability for past wrongs.

Wiki Egalitarianism page

Its general premise is that people should be treated as equals on certain dimensions such as race, religion, ethnicity, sex, political affiliation, economic status, social status, and cultural heritage. Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status.

Urban Dictionary definition

One who believes all posses certain rights. The most basic of these rights being: life, possession, expresion. These rights are limited by the rights of others.

A person who doesn't believe that males or females are superior, but rather that both genders are equal to each other and acts upon that belief.

There is a lot of (gender) equalism thinking that is similar to feminist thinking, there may also be differences. Why can't (some) feminists accept that just because a woman does not wish to self-identify either personally or politically as a feminist, it does not mean that they disagree with the whole of feminism or are opposed to feminism. Calling oneself an equalist certainly does not mean that the status-quo has been accepted (as some feminists suggest: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1155502-Feminism-is-dead-long-live-Equalism-What-do-you-think.

You do not have to call yourself a feminist to be in support of equal rights and just because you do not self-identify as a feminist does not automatically make you an anti-feminist as some of the more radical feminists (at least on MN) would like people to believe.

Hullygully · 04/07/2011 12:02

Yo-hodle-oh yodel-oh ho ho

TheAtomicBum · 04/07/2011 12:03

I've been wondering when the front line question was going to come up. Personally, I don't think we're ready for women to be on the front line. You can argue about distractions and physical prowess if you want, but the real reason these days is simple.

Modern warefare is just plain dirty. They are fighting terrorists, not soldiers. There's a difference. Terrorists load young children up with bombs and send that at there enemy on suicide missions. The british soldier than has to shoot the child to save his platoon. I will lose no pride in saying that I couldn't do it. And then there's the other one, they leave injured children lying around as bait. Go near them and then discover that there several pounds of semtex under the child. Or there's a dozen rifles pointed at you. They have to be ignored. Could you do it? Would you want to do it?

TheAtomicBum · 04/07/2011 12:04

Yodel-aye-hee-who ! ! !

Joins in some yodelling.

TheAtomicBum · 04/07/2011 12:07

Plus, it may sounds sexist, but the other reason for when they get caught. You're up against people who don't view you as having any human rights at all. What do you think they are going to do to a woman they catch? What method of interogation do you think they would prefer?

Hullygully · 04/07/2011 12:07

No, but some women would, and lots of men wouldn't. Boudicca would, for eg. Don't buy into the gentler sex nonsense.

MarySueFTW · 04/07/2011 12:07

Likewise Feminism, if that isn't obvious...

But I don't hate feminists. The one word I regret in this thread is when I talked of feminists' 'little forums' and that was unnecessary belittlement. My style of debate might be misinterpreted as patronizing when I'm often going for 'friendly sarcasm.' But I'm going to watch myself, because the internet doesn't convey certain intentions, and when things get flamey you can't see anything for the smoke.

Hullygully · 04/07/2011 12:08

They rape men too.

Carminagetsprimal · 04/07/2011 12:08

Women can fight as good as men - is it Israel where they have an almost 50/50 army ( not sure???) Ok why not - let's get more mothers joining the army.

eandz · 04/07/2011 12:08

AIBU when I think that there are two very real and very concurrent definitions of 'feminist' one of which is very outdated and shouldn't be around today?

Empusa · 04/07/2011 12:09

lenak Thank you, that post is spot on!

TheAtomicBum · 04/07/2011 12:11

I know lots of men couldn't. I couldn't. Maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't. But anyway, that's the reason why these days.

Another thing I've always disliked about the army is that there is an easier fitness test for woman. It's that's not sexist, then I don't know what is. Equal position, equal test.

lenak · 04/07/2011 12:14

There is also an issue of women fighting on the front line due to the fact that men may take stupid risks to protect a female soldier that they would not take to protect a fellow male.

Yes, it has to do with gender stereotypes and ingrained (passive) sexism, but it's a deep psychological construct that has been in place for millenia to protect those who are perceived (rightly or wrongly) as somehow weaker and it will take more than a few equality laws to change it.

It could be overcome in the first instance by having all female front line platoons, but that would be unrealistic.

WRT Israel - isn't their army 50/50 due to the 2 year national service requirement?

sherbetpips · 04/07/2011 12:17

she probably just disliked being labelled. I wouldnt classify myself as an anything'ist' - I change my views way to often when I hear a decent enough argument!

Carminagetsprimal · 04/07/2011 12:21

I couldn't kiss my dc goodbye knowing I might never see them again - I just couldn't physically do it - but I know my dh could, he'd risk his life for the greater good. support our men and stop putting them down fgs. That's why I cannot associate with some feminists - they're on a completely different planet to me.

TheAtomicBum · 04/07/2011 12:22

I did say about ignoring the distraction arguement.

It's also because your platoon gets very close as they're in life and death situations together. Relationships will happen. And then they will take stupid risks to protect this person. I think both would, wouldn't they?

As I did say, I don't think we're quite ready for that to work yet. We need to narrow a few of these steretypes.

Perhaps chivalry does need to die.

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