AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

I dont want to give her the money. I am cross and resentful from last time, although i thought i had let it go, I obviously havent. However, I hate being involved in any sort of conflict, i hate people being cross with me, and i hate being told im a bad sister.

I hate the fact that I can tell i am wavering, and the only way I have enough strength not to give in is to avoid her. I feel like I should be able to say no and mean it, but I cant. I hate the fact that I feel by avoiding her, I am abandoning my DB to his illness without any sort of emotional support from someone he should be able to count on. I hate that she is punishing my dad because she cant get at me.

I hate that I am not the person I want to be, and instead i am this flippen wreck of an idiot!

I'm so sorry to hear that you are having a bad week, fallenninja - I hope that your ds is ok now, that social services have backed off, and that your cooker is fixed. If the cooker is still a problem, it might be worth asking on freecycle or freegle, if someone has one they are getting rid of.

It sounds like your therapist is being helpful and supportive, and that extra help is being offered, which is good.

It's such a shame that all these bad things have happened after you had had a good weekend away with the dc. I'm sending you a {{{hug}}}.

Anyone would feel like caving is the easy option under those circumstances but it is not. You wont be making things better for anyone. Your brother has to take some responsibility for himself. Write to HIM, not P, and tell him you will be there for him emotionally but you cannot give anymore financial support as a) you are doinf enough already by paying of HIS loan and b) that land is the only back up you have that prevents you being in the same situation if anything happens in the future. You have no one to go begging to to bail you out.

I am sorry to hear about your son, hope he is ok.

What kind of person do you want to be. Sounds to me like you are a blooming lovely person, albeit maybe a bit too nice for your own good.

Ninja, well done. Keep on keeping on. It will be worth it in the end, if you stick to your guns. Your time and attention need to be focussed on your kids and your court case.

Dig your heels in, come up with a mantra which you can repeat to yourself and the madbag ad infinitum - "I have no money because he is still costing me £700 a month; money will not help him" or something. How about making a recording of it and just playing it to them without even opening your mouth. That way you could just switch the thing on and lock yourself in the bathroom with candles, oils, g&t, chocs, book, for the duration.

Prettybird, sorry I misunderstood your post. Whereyouleftit, you're right of course.

"I hate that I am not the person I want to be"

That's the wrong way to look at it. She and your brother are not the people you want them to be, the people they ought to be (to be fully human - much as you love your brother, he sounds weaker than a proper person ought to be).

This is all still their fault. Everything that is happening to your brother, your father and you (not your ex's business, of course, unless he's sensing you are distracted and is taking advantage...).

You are doing well. Not talking to her is the right thing to do, regardless of the confrontation you probably think you ought to have with her. besides, you have already said no. There is nothing more to say to her.

You are doing exactly the right thing, and it's just a shame that you don't realise it yet.

ninja i think for now avoidance might be the easiest AND MOST EFFECTIVE way of dealing with her. She is bullying you- what do we tell our kids? Ignore a bully they will go away so enough. It sounds like you are not firing on full cylinders emotionally, and you are doing the right thing by getting more professional help. Ignoring her will buy your brother time, will help him better without nay more cash muddying the water, without him being put upon to work out what he wants to do with what is left of his business. You are doing the right thing.

Write letters to your brother, send him texts, get your other siblings to pass on messages from you to him.

The answer phone message sounds highly manipulative, why is she on the background muttering away?! Delete the message, it is not helping you.

Stay strong, resolute.

How about this as an anti-wavering strategy: do nothing until your new counselling is in place and you've had a chance to really talk things over with a therapist face-toface. You can always review after that, but for now put yourself first.

For once, ill though he might be, you father will have to fight his own battles with P or anyone else, at least for the time being. You're only one person, not the US Navy or something, and you can't fight on all fronts at the same time.

Wishing your DS a quick recovery (and ex an unhappy accident of his own).

Hello Ninja. I'm sorry you've had more stress heaped on your shoulders. I hope your DS is ok now and that your ex pulls his head in. Also, very well done in keeping strong. You are doing really well under a terrible amount of pressure.

Ok, I know I've been amateur psychologising you in my posts, but I'm really not surprised with what your counsellor has said to you.

You said "I hate being involved in any sort of conflict, i hate people being cross with me, and i hate being told im a bad sister". You realise the first two are just par for the course of being a human being, yes? Everyone goes through life and has some sort of conflict or cross words. I think you have been conditioned in some way to believe you are not allowed to disagree with people because that makes you a bad person or you will upset family harmony in doing so; and as such, you then bend over backwards to accommodate even the most unreasonable demand. You've become an appeaser somehow. I really do wonder if you became the unwitting keystone that has held your family together ie, whatever "truce" was achieved between your Dad's 2 marriages/families. I mean, I wonder if, rather than the adults sorting out between themselves the inevitable awkwardness that must have ensued following a break up/ remarriage/new children, they made you, in fact, do that for them.

You hate being told you're a bad sister. Nobody would objectively say you have been anything other than an angel towards your brother. If a stranger told you your story, you would not judge the sister, would you? You'd congratulate her generosity and selflessness. So this again is conditioning. You have been taught that there is absolutely nothing you can do that will make you a good enough sister to your older brother in P's eyes. You will never achieve good sister status with this woman. So stop trying.

You older DB is a grown up. I'm assuming P is not keeping him prisoner. So he can contact you if he needs to, without his mother breathing down his neck while he does so. I imagine that call was made under duress. Stop feeling like you have the power to save him. You do not. Money is not his problem or the solution here. It's what's going on in his head that needs fixing and you can't fix that.

You don't like yourself at the moment because you have strayed from the family script. You are not appeasing, you are not bending over backwards. You are programmed to feel bad about yourself when you are not playing their game. Don't feel bad, feel bloody well empowered! When you stray from the family script it's like a form of detox. The cold turkey stage is frightening and hurts, it doesn't feel good at all. But if you stick with it, their poison will be out of your veins eventually and you won't let it pollute you again.

"I am cross and resentful from last time, although i thought i had let it go, I obviously havent. However, I hate being involved in any sort of conflict, i hate people being cross with me, and i hate being told im a bad sister. "

Ninja, only a complete psychopath would not feel like this. How could you think you'd be able to 'let it go' so soon? It's just not possible, especially since it is still hanging over your head. I know the conflict would be clawing at my insides if it were me.

Avoidance of P is not weak, it is PRACTICAL. "I feel like I should be able to say no and mean it, but I cant." Remember, she has been working on you for years, conditioning you to behave as she wants. Avoidance is your best defence, it's harder for her to make you jump if you can't here her demand it. Avoidance of P in eminently sensible. You are not abandoning your brother to his illness. Quite literally, you are not your brother's keeper. If anyone has that job, it is his wife. However useless she is at it, it is her responsibility, not yours. You are right that he needs emotional support, but you throwing money in his direction doesn't give him that either.

"I hate that she is punishing my dad because she cant get at me. " Now there's a little nugget of truth about P! Hold onto it, it puts her demands into perspective.

"I hate that I am not the person I want to be, and instead i am this flippen wreck of an idiot!" Personally, I find the person you are extremely impressive, and as far from being a 'wreck of an idiot' as a person can be. You are a person under an unimaginable amount of pressure, who is struggling but soldiering on. Be proud of yourself ninja, you are one hell of a woman.

Glad you are holding up against this awful woman.

If you can't avoid her, a simple trick I found made my ex back off when he made suggestions about writing his csa debt off: tell her you're getting legal advice and could she put any proposals in writing for you.

Keep strong Ninja

Oh my therapist once gave me the best bit of advice ever.

"If saying no would make someone else unhappy and saying yes would make you unhappy, what makes you think that someone elses happiness is more important than yours?"

Also

"Other people say no to you, you have the right to say no to other people"

Simple, kind of obvious but for me, sentiments I had never really given much thought before. Sounds stupid but just that bit of the therapy actually changed my life.

Ninja your biggest crime is that you are too kind and generous and worried about others and their thoughts. I'd love to have a family member or friend like you (not so I could take advantage of you but just because you sound so lovely).

I really hope your DS is OK and social services have seen through your ex's reporting.

Do not waiver! You are not a bad person! They are being emotionally abusive to you. remeber that the money you have is needed by your children for their future. what if you kid wants to be a doctor, or volunteer in South America, it all costs money.

Hope you DC is okay.

Well done, ninja! Been thinking about you this weekend and wondering how you were doing. Sorry to hear your DS has been hospitalized, and that the ex is being much less than helpful.

I think avoidance is the best strategy right now. P is obviously not someone that will accept no for an answer no matter how many times you say it. Eventually there will come a time when it is too late for you to be of any help and at that point it will be safe to talk to these people again, but until then, I'd keep my head down and concentrate on sorting out the other stresses in life.

We're all behind you! Am impressed with how strong you're being under the relentless pressure!

The more indepth sessions sound like a brilliant idea.

What about writing to your brother? Would she open his mail?

so pkeased to hear your ok. sorry you had such a crap week,remember the song you had a bad day nOt a bad life!!lots of love and strength to you.

Wow. Has taken me all afternoon to read this (children - what children?!)

Ninja, you do realise that not one single person here thinks you are being unreasonable.

There is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said. Just remember your children and you. I think you are right to avoid P and also think sending a further email (kpf's was very good, clean and mapped out all the points) would've a good idea, that way you have got across what you need to say without giving them the opportunity to interrupt and bully you into anything. Glad to hear your dad is on side.

Is there a rl friend that could come over next time she pops in, not necessarily to say anything but for moral support.

Good luck, I hope she gets bored and moves on to the in laws soon!

Hi ninja!

Good to hear from you.

You are doing BRILLIANTLY. My God, the pressure you must be under at the moment. Don't underestimate how much strength it is taking to hold up and be normal and there for the children, etc. Can't beleive the SS thing - hope it is all ok for you

Anyway. Just keep your head down. Refuse all calls. Do NOT engage. Grab that therapy with both hands and just keep away from them. And pretty soon P will realise she's not going to get what she wants - and when that happens, you will be ASTONISHED at the speed at which you will be dropped (in order for her to concentrate on leeching onto a new target).

The target will probably be SIL's parents-they'll probably finally come to the conclusion that that's their best option. So roll on that day. The of course history will be re-written, SIL's parents will have raced to the rescue, etc. etc.

Keep Calm and Carry On not answering the phone

Good to hear from you ninja.

Remember: you are not , repeat not , "abandoning you db to his illness without any sort of emotional support from someone he should be able to count on" She is. And what sort of mother would do that?

You are there for him. Emotionally. I was going to say "but not financially" - but then I remembered: you are there financially as well, to the tune of £700 a month!

If his mother is going to block people from helping in any other way than financially, then she has to accept the consequences. Not you.

He is a grown man.

Yes, he might be having a breakdown. Throwing money at it will not help his mental state. If he is allowing his mother to block emotional support form other members of his family (his/your father, you) then that is his choice If he is genuinely incapable of making that choice, then it is up to his mother or his wife (who is after, all his next of kin) to look after his best interests. If they continue to insist that money will sort it, then it is their responsibility to raise the cash AND NOT YOURS

But his mother is being almost criminally irresponsible in her obsession with a financial solution.

You know, as an accountant, that it is illegal to continue to run a business that is insolvent. You know that a Director of such a company could be debarred from holding directorships in other companies.

You know, as a daughter that, having faced and dealt with bankruptcy, your father became better with money.

Even if you can't get out of your ingrained habit of "people pleasing": please do the right thing by your brother in the long run.... DON'T LEND GIVE HIM ANY MORE MONEY

Listen to this occasionally.

In Butlins Redcoat Style: WHO ARE THEY DOING IT FOR?? 1, 2, 3 .....

Ninja - glad to hear you are keeping well and all I can say is I think you are doing fantastically well. Even if you don't believe it yourself.

You have had some amazing advice from the posters above me ^ so I won't repeat them or pretend that I have anything better to say or any experience I can share.

However one thing I can pin point is that you are internalising everything which is making you feel very bad. What you need to realise is that much of this out of your control.

Yes you feel bad about it - a DB having such a hard time is terrible and anyone would feel bad about it. But you are not responsible for the situation and nothing 'P' does or says will change that fact.

To be honest I think the way you are handling this is admirable. SO you don't like confilct - who does? And you have chosen to just ignore the situation and not engage - you shouldn't see this as a sign of weakness. This is a perfectly viable option and a sure fire way of defusing the situation - why do view this as negative??? You have chosen not to allow 'P' to dominate the situation and steam roller you into anything. The fact that she has used her control on your sick brother to ensure that this means that you are cut off from him and cannot offer him your emotional support is just not your fault. Please believe me on this one.

Keep it up! You are doing so well. And I hope your DB is accessing the help he needs too.

Hi thanks everyone.

SS concluded that it was an "unfounded complaint", so at least that wasnt as terrible as it could be. My Ex basically reported that I had deliberately injured my son resulting in a hospital visit. He stated that he had grave concerns, which he could no address as he hasnt seen the children for several months. He is "worried about their welfare" Idiot! The injury was caused at school as my ex full well knows, because i told him about it

I am just avoiding P, I dont see an alternative. Im trying to pick best of the worst scenarios I cant get hold of DB without P whilst he is at her house. I just haveto hope he is OK, and that if something terribly happened my dad would be notified.

I just cant believe she would be like this.

I can't believe you have to cope with so much!!!

Your ex sounds like a bloody idiot/ tosser/ b*astard/ arse/ allof the above.

*youTo be honest I think you need to focus on the court case and the stuff you have to deal with because of it. This has about your children and of upmost importance.

'P' is a total witch and emotionally abusive. FOr once there is total MN agreement on this. You have so much to deal with already that dealing with her should be on the bottom of the list and therefore ignoring her and not engagin is absolutely the best way forward.

Your DB is an adult and actually has his nearest (and dearest?) with him supporting him. You love him, that much is clear, but your children come first. This is absolutely where you should be focussing so please believe me when I say you are doing the right thing!!!!

Ninja. Could you write to your brother? Type the envelope so it looks official and mark it private and confidential, I know she might still open it but it is a potential way of getting hold of him, or email.

Or you could be just as sneaky as her and wait til she's out then call the house!

Totally agree. Ignoring is definitely the thing to do for now. Keep strong, there are better times ahead!