AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

Fluter's jaw hits floor...

Some people have the most jaw-dropping, thick skinned, cheek, don't they? Definitely sounds to me like she's in for a kick-back or she knows something about the land she's keeping quiet about (like it's in an area about to be released for building purposes, or there's a commercial developer sniffing about).

I'm not usually one for shouting, but on this one occasion, I'm going to....

HAND THE LOT OVER TO YOUR SOLICITOR WITH INSTRUCTIONS TO GET THEM OFF YOUR BACK. Whether it means a restraining order, threats to bankrupt your brother yourself, whatever, just do it. Then you can have peace of mind, your brother will have to learn to stand on his own two feet (like your dad did), and this atrocious woman will just have to go somewhere else.

(BTW: the solicitor route has been tried and tested in my family. Works a treat because the solicitor is dispassionate and on your side)

note that your dad isn't suggesting you help your db, and your dad has been in that situation himself.

that should tell you everything you need to know.

I think the MAIN threat (manipulation] getting under Ninja's skin is if her brother does something silly, and then she would 'feel' responsible. P reinforces this.

So this stops her getting solicitors involved or anyone else who might 'stress out' her brother.

"What I'd really like is a wall of mumsnetters around ninja's house, email and phone, repelling this woman at every turn."

Yes - a human mumsnet shield!

Just read the whole thread.

P doesn't care about you at all, if you didn't have any money she wouldn't give a toss if you could make the meeting or not. She thinks you are daft enough to bail DB out again. If you do bail out DB you will prove she was right.

I agree that she resents you for being the child of the second marriage.

What will you say in 20 years time when one of your children needs financial support and you have to tell them you gave everything away to your feckless brother?

If you cave and give him more money (and it will be giving, don't kid yourself it is a loan) your DB and his mother will not embrace you into the heart of their family. They won't even think about you until the next time they need another hand out.

Actually - your Dad should be fighting your corner, and telling your DB's mother she's being ridiculous...

You tried bailing him out.

It didn't work last time.

Now he's suicidal from (work+family) stress.

You really can't go down this line again.

How dare she say you don't deserve to know how he is?? That is so cruel - for DB too.

Have a as-lovely-as-it-can-be-in-the-circumstances-weekend (and do keep us posted when you get the time or energy).

Go Team Ninja! Ninja she say NO!

Ninja, would it help to keep focused on the fact that you do not have the money to give to DB? His mother is telling you that you have money (or could obtain it) to give him. But actually you don't. You really don't. You're paying 700 a month for him, to start with. If you had bucket loads of savings that would be one thing (though actually still a damn silly idea), but you don't have any at all. You have a whacking huge debt.

well said (again). ShoutyHampster. Especially "Could you imagine doing that to your brother in return?"

( KungfuPanda, I have been trying to work out how my typo occurred, and the only thing I can think of is that my swollen, kung-fu'd upper lip stuck to my bottom lip as I was saying your name...)

She WHAT?????? She turne up at your house, uninvited, WITH THE GUY WHO COULD BUY YOUR LAND??????????

She is insane. The bloody CHEEK!!! You've said you won't sell it, and why on earth should you? Yet she's airbrushed that inconvenient truth out of the picture and is forging ahead regardless. I'm stunned.

Please send the email. If nothing else, her latest stunt should harden your resolve.

God god these people are bonkers.

Ninja - here's what you should do: write a letter of farewell to your brother. Tell him that due to the pressure put on you by his partner and the rest of the family you have no choice but to withdraw for a while and that you will talk to him in a year's time. Recommend he gets both psych and financial advice. He probably does need to go bankrupt and you can't help that - but there is a good outcome here: If he goes bankrupt and is forced to live in the real world and maybe any people round him that are unhealthy influences will jump ship. Then he's likely to be a bit more grounded. I still wouldn't lend him any money but he can do this on his own really. The 'lend me money or I kill myself is, well it's a bit pathetic really.

It's taken ages to read the thread and I am absolutely gobsmacked really. I'm sorry about your brother but of course you cannot help him any further financially.
If I were you once this has all died down I would sell the land to someone and pay off whatever you can of the debt your brother got you into and try and put an end to it.
That way they won't be able to keep mithering you about this in the future.
Hope you find a way through this.

Ninja - this is the most godawful scenario I've heard of in a long time. Been following the thread since the beginning. Hope you're OK.

2 points - how do you think P would react if situation was reversed and it was you who needed money from your brother. Would she advise him to willingly sell property/remortgage his home etc to provide it? Would she hell.

What would happen now if you became ill (or even suicidal) through the pressure your DB and his mother have put on you, and the fact that you have remortgaged the house to help him. Would they care? Would they stop pressuring you? Would they feel guilty about putting you in this position? Would they hell.

I'd stay in Wales as long as you can - have nothing more to do with them directly, and if necessary, get a solicitor to send them a letter telling them to stop hounding you. I cannot believe you are being treated this way by your family, and they are expecting you to do these things after their appalling behaviour towards you. I am so very angry on your behalf and I don't even know you!

ninja stay strong and enjoy your "break" away from contact with this venomous female, and relax when you can with your children.

A thought has struck me that perhaps your DB cannot get further financial support from his DW family as they may have already contributed to yet another previously unsuccessful "bail-out plan".

I do have naturally suspicious mind, and maybe this is not the case, but it may be worth a bit of digging around - as it strengthens the rationale for you not throwing more good money at a bad business.

Off to get crafty and make my HamsterRocks and AmazingPanda badges to wear proudly on my lapel!

You need help to stay strong. So I would recommend...

a) Getting the land independently valued.
b) Telling your Dad he needs to tell his (former?) partner to back off immediately
c) Talking to your brother face to face, not through the prism of this woman's warped world.

Are there organisations which can support the family of people who cannot manage money, do you know?

Perhaps also saying to P

"I am not selling the land. However, if I change my mind, I want to make two things very clear. One, that it will be through an independent estate agent, and two, that the proceeds will go towards compensating me for the £150,000 DB still owes me"

ninja I was wondering how exactly the conversation went with your brother when you realised he hadn't been paying the loan secured on your house? Did she get involved in that as well?

I often find with by-marriage versus blood relative double standards it's helpful to reframe it.

So saying, "P. Think for a minute. Imagine I had got into financial trouble and DB had remortgaged his home to help me. His mortgage had gone up from £500 to £1200 every month. And I had defaulted on the loan and not told him, so he nearly lost the home altogether. And then he had to conclude I wasn't keeping my promises, so had to just accept I had no intention of paying him back. And then Dad told him on top of all of this, he had to sell more of his property and give me yet more money. You wouldn't be persuading him to do this - you would be furious with me"

Good idea to take yourself away, but please don't even ever ever feel bad about your behaviour. YOU ARE NOT WRONG!!!! hope you can say strongxxx

What a shocking & sad situation - please stay strong x

AMKD, great book love Fanny Burney.

ninja, well done. It's almost worth just laughing in the witch's face. Hope one day you'll be able to.

I can't believe the nerve of your DB's mum, it's bad enough trying to get you to bail your DB out again but to try and rip you off into the process (I'm willing to bet her developer friend is offering less than the going rate!).

Bailing your DB out is only ever going to be a temporary solution, he'll still end up back in the same situation a few months/ years down the line. As far as I can see every possible solution offered by DB's DM has a negative impact on your DC.

I presume the shetland ponies on the land are for your DC? Will selling the land mean you have to get rid of the ponies? Or pay £X each month for alternative accommodation?

If you work extra hours, whether running DB's business or extra hours at your work to pay for another bailout, you get less time with your DC.

If your DB is honest with his DW and her parents he has a chance of getting financial help from them, making his DW see that she can't maintain her current lifestyle and puts his relationship with all of them on a more honest level. If they end up dropping him for this then they aren't worth worrying about and, however painful it is in the short term, your DB will be better off without them in his life.

I hope you've had a nice weekend away and not spent it worrying about all this .

I hope you're having a nice relaxing weekend. Please do come back and give us an update!