AIBU to tell my brother to stick himself?

[fallenninja]

OK so brief background. about 10 years ago my DB got himself into a quite sticky financial mess. He had what should have been a very profitable business but he kept "borrowing" money to fund his and his DWs lifestyle. Cue massive debts, and verge of bankruptcy.

I very luckily had a house with a fair whack of equity in it, due to inheritance / buying cheaply when my parents divorced. With a whole host of conditions and reservations and following massive conversations I agreed for DB to raise a loan secured on my house (idiot) in order for him to sort this out. This was for £150k (i know even bigger idiot). Arrangement was simple. DB repaid the loan, over the 20years that it was for. DB didnt. Massive family falling out. I ended up remortgaing and obviously am now and will be forever paying the stupid loan off.

Over the last 5 years or so we seem to have repaired the family rift, and whilst it still galls me, I suppose in some ways ive let it go.

So now ...
DB yet again has got himself in a mess, there is to be a family meeting tonight to dicuss how to help him. Hes in a deep depression, his wife has left him (money issues - he can no longer keep her to the style she expects) and he obviously is in debt again. He tried to commit sucide last weekend.

Now obviously i am concerned about him, I love him, and dont want anything terrible to happen to him, but i have no interest in helping him financially or in any big commited way, which is where the disagreement is coming in.

Suggestion 1. I have a parcel of land which I know a builder would purchase to develop, so option is that I sell my plot of land, give the money to DB, and then his mum/DB will pay me a monthly sum up and until the value is met (including interest), so Ive not lost out as such.

Suggestion 2. DB IVAs and we as a family help him with the payments and also with the running of his business, I as an accountant seem to have been signed up for the massive brunt of this. Set up budgets/monitor expenditure/blah blah blah. However I know my brother and he wont pay any attention to me saying no, so i think it wont work

However if he did do something stupidly stupid because I didnt help i would struggle to forgive myself, but this is how i got guilted persuaded to help last time

So AIBU to say get lost? Or is DBs mum in asking me to consider this?

(Im off on the school run then popping to town, so shall return at lunch for the verdict)

Wales: Enjoy. Relax. Forget. Play with your kids. :)

If anything truly serious were to happen, your dad would be told. And if he weren't, then that is a indictment true reflection of P's selfishness and self-centredness and shows how little she truly cares for him.

P has a very charming way to get people to do what she wants, doesn't she - seems to come down to emotional blackmail applied in as many ways as she can, as hard as she can. The more you say about her the harder it is to maintain the view that she's a naive but caring mother - can she really not realise how manipulative she is being? Flip side, the more you write the more respect I have your DF - who had the wit or luck to get away from her and isn't agreeing her demands are appropriate or in the best interests of your DB.

Erghhh. She's starting to make me shiver.

I think sending KunFu's email is a very good idea (once you've changed the deliberate error - I'm sure she just wanted to check someone was awake ). Then try and find a way to disengage. Find a phrase (I'm not prepared to discuss this with you any further - goodbye!) and stick to it. You know she's going to get worse before she gives in and looks for an alternative money pot, and I think the suggestion to treat it as an academic exercise could be a way forward (or at least it could for me) - you could even try and preempt her by writing a list of all the ridiculous things she could use to try and make you change your mind and see how long it takes before she thinks of them for herself - if you've already got them written down and know they're nonsense it will reduce the shock value no end when she says them. Depends what works for you.

You are being so strong. You are a good, caring mother. You are a good, caring daughter. You are a good, caring sister. Believe it!

(And have a fantastic weekend in Wales :o)

I am shocked and horrified at this woman's evil behaviour. Perhaps KungfupanndaQC can advise better, but would it be possible to take out some sort of restraining order, so P cannot contact ninja in person, on the phone or via email or letter?

Ninja - I hope that you are having a lovely time in Wales. If you can, take a few minutes to sit and look hard at yourself, and see the truth that we can all see, which is that you are a truly loving and special person, who has already done a huge amount for your brother - and you have nothing whatsoever to feel guilty about - on the contrary, in fact, your behaviour towards your brother has been beyond kind and caring.

I think it would be a great idea to send the email now, and then ignore all communications from P - and an even better idea to get your solicitor involved. I can absolutely understand that you are struggling to seperate the practical financial issues from the emotional family ones, and a solicitor who has no emotional involvement will help you stay strong - and there would be nothing wrong in using that help.

Sending you a huge hug.

That email is a good email, but I'm a bit worried that if Ninja sends it that it might trigger off another bout of feeling guilty.

I'm a big believer in having your say first and THEN disengaging. If she is strong enough to be straight then I think she should keep it VERY brief - make no more than three important points. She's done this to some extent in her last post. Then walk away from this P woman.

Only deal with the brother directly after that... and find some way of telling him to get his bloody arse out of there away from P CULT.

I don't agree with the restaining order suggestion. I think that would keep OP in a state of victimhood when she needs to be empowered, and even more tied up with P.

I offer again Ninja: I have a friend who is a land agent based in Manchester. If you are in her part of the world I can ask her for some advice, if not she might be able to recommend someone in your local area.

Whilst I in no way think you should even contemplate selling the land, I really think you should be armed with the full knowledge of how much it is worth so that you can throw it back in the scheming cows face.

Ninja, why isn't it getting easier, the worse this woman behaves?

I am getting worried that she is still getting to you, rather than getting your back up, the more she reveals her increasingly blatant self-interest, her sabotaging of your brother's well-being (cutting him off from someone who loves him and who has tried to help him in the past), her attacks on your fragile ego, her attacks on your children's interests.

Cruella/P has no real power, all the power she has is in harnessing Ninja's feelings of guilt (completely misguided, of course). She's got nothing to threaten Ninja with at all, except the threat of keeping DB from her. DB's an adult, he can do what he likes. Cruella can try to poison his mind against Ninja, but I'm pretty sure that process already started many years ago. Nothing Ninja does can make this situation better, but she can sure as hell make it worse by perpetuating the cycle of abuse, which will happen if she gives him/Cruella the money.

Here's another link for you, Ninja, about manipulators and how to engage (or not to engage) with them.

counsellingresource.com/ask-the-psychologist/2009/02/02/controlling-manipulative-mother/

This is a classic that shows how silly it is to keep lending financially irresponsible people money. A good read too..

Good going Ninja!

Now you need to keep it up!!!

I suggest you go back and re-read all of your posts. You can see it can't you? When its all written down in black and white you can see how toxic this woman is being, and like others have said I am wondering how much she has been feeding off your DB.

Looks like your DB ended up with a wife just like hus mother hey

She brought the developer friend with her to the ambush meeting? Blimey. She's not saying 'Please sell the land', even, she's saying 'Please sell the land to this person. I am afraid I have to agree with other posters who think this is a shakedown.

See what I mean about keeping up a pell-mell pace to force you into going along with things before you've got time to think? Well done you for getting away from it all to Wales. Keep taking things slowly, and looking after yourself.

Perhaps you and your DF could go and see your brother when you are back to find out how he is? If he needs anything from you right now it is probably compassionate contact, because heaven knows what P is saying to him.

P has therefore shown herself to be what you suspected and you must therefore cut her out of your life. She is absolutely toxic to use that remark about not letting you know how DB is as you have washed your hands of him.

Can you get straight to your brother ? Can your Dad, who I'm assuming is also his dad ?

You need to explain that you love him very very dearly and that is why you will not provide any more funds. You can see clearly what needs to happen for him to recover from this and get on with his life but he and his mum cannot. His wife is only looking out for herself too, having left him when he needs her most.

Explain that you are doing this out of love for him not to punish him or wash your hands of him. He won't like it and, like a desperately upset toddler being denied something that they believe they really really need/want, he probably won't understand right now either. In time however he should, just like the toddler who grows up to be a decent person because of boundaries put in place by caring parents, appreciate that you did the sensible thing for both of you.

God, P is a manipulative bitch, isn't she? My ILs can be like this. I told FIL I was not going to let his electrician friend do some wiring for me as I had used him before and found him unreliable. FIL then turned up unannounced on my doorstep with the electrician, making it very difficult to say no! P is trying to embarrass you into selling the land by bringing her "friend" with her. Don't give in.

Glad you got away!

"Ninja, why isn't it getting easier, the worse this woman behaves?"

I suspect because she has trained Ninja to behave as a supplicant to her and her son since childhood, plupervert .

Yes, that "Cruella" woman would have ninja, her kids and her disabled father out on the street just to get what she wants. She clearly has no scruples at all and is a money grubbing bitch to boot.

She has trained her son to be dependent and never let him grow up. He cannot run a business and should not be given money or be in charge of it professionally or personally until he has got help.

Go Gilmore!

Emotional blackmail at it's worse.

Let them play their games. Stay strong Ninja!!!!!!

Keep posting and it's not your duty to bail them out.

Glad I made your day Kungfupanda, if it's any consolation I feel exactly the same about getting caught out. Do you want to start a mutual appreciation society?

You can be President and I will be in charge of wine provisions Chairman

As for you FallenNinja send that email and get shot of the greedy bastards

Kalinda's link to manipulative parents info is fantastic!
It is so so so true!
Describes my granny to a tee! We were always being told "if you really love me you'd" and "you don't care about me if you do that" and how insensitive we were to her needs.

Glad you've gone away.

Keep strong and I agree with whoever said only talk to your brother now. She's a bit of a bitch

Animation - I suggested the restraining order because I thought it would give ninja space and freedom from the bullying/pestering from this woman, and that would make it easier for her to see everything clearly and make the right decisions. What I'd really like is a wall of mumsnetters around ninja's house, email and phone, repelling this woman at every turn.

Well done on getting away ninja. Hope you get time to breathe and think!

Just disengage. Use ANY means you can to continue to disengage and stay that way. Keep contact to a minimum. So she's now desperately trying emotional blackmail to get you to ENGAGE again? Don't. Don't make any reply to that. It's a disgusting thing to say, total blackmail - 'if you're not going to give me your money, I won't let you communicate with him'. She's really showing what a scumbag she is, isn't she? She doesn't have her son's best interests at heart, as we've now seen - that comment just proves it further. He could probably do with a chat with his sister just to know that you're worried about his health, to know you've been asking about him - it would probably do him good. As would him hearing from YOU why you think a bail-out is NOT the solution to this. But his mother is going to withold that from him, use him as a bargaining chip. Words don't cover it - all I can say is no matter what happens, never forget the way DBmum (is that P??) has acted here. This is who she is. Never trust this woman ever again.

I hope that over the weekend you get time to read all the comments here and I hope they strengthen your resolve. I won't re-hash, but there's one aspect that strikes me that I don't think has been touched on much.

If you did help out financially now (be that by selling your land OR taking on running the business) what you would be doing is letting them know once and for all that you are willing to continue to bail him out. It's quite a crucial point.

Right now, you are actually in a very strong position. Think about it - if you ask someone for a favour, the chances are they'll consider it and help if they can, unless there's a reason not to. You did this and more, helping your brother above and beyond any call of duty.

But if you ask someone for a favour, then let them down in return, the chances are that the next time you ask for a favour, the reply will be 'are you joking? Not a chance mate - look what happened last time!' Pretty logical. Most people would expect this reply. (Most defaulters wouldn't have the brass neck to ask again!)

This is where you are. Your DB and his mum are chancing their arm, totally, and they know it. What they are asking is breathtakingly ridiculous, criminally selfish and grasping. They know that any sensible person should laugh them out of town, saying 'Sorry, you made a fool of me once, I'd be a fool to give you a penny!' Their only chance is that they know you have a weak point, and they are absolutely going to bust a gut to put you under so much pressure, harrass you so vilely, that you become so distressed that you give in to them. (Horrid treatment of a family member, isn't it? Could you imagine doing that to your brother in return? Does that tell you something?)

Right now your DB mum probably expects that you will not give her the money. She is probably already casting around for other options. I repeat, you are in a strong position, the strongest you ever will be. His creditors won't wait for long. They need action NOW. You only have to remain out of contact 'utterly stressed, totally upset that they would hound you like this' for a short time, and the moment will have passed. You will be FREE of this dysfunctional family trap you're in.

But what happens if you cave?

You then become the fool. The person who can be bullied. The person who endlessly gives favours, makes conditions, but is so weak that the bullies know they won't stand up for themselves and impose them. If you give your brother ANYTHING this time round, you are setting up a pattern for the future, and you will effectively be stuffed. Because next time (and there will be a next time - 150K didn't stop this happening, did it?) they will KNOW that all they have to do is harrass you and harrass you until you give in. Look at the stress you're under now. Another thirty years of it cropping up periodically? It's just not worth thinking about.

So - DO IT NOW. Stop the cycle now. Because if you give in this time, trying to put your foot down next time will be twice as hard, if not impossible. Think to the future. This will never end. And next time (as you sit there with your ever growing mortgage, and the ugly house built right on your boundary that's sliced off a nice chunk of its value, and your ever-dwindling savings as you continue to be asked for 10K, and 25K, and a free bit of accountancy, and, and, and...) you will be sitting there wishing with all your heart that you had just been that little bit stronger.

Can you go on a proper holiday? Seriously, last minute two week break? I know it sounds drastic, but consider the above, and it's cheap at the price!

Happy weekend xx (in my old homeland! :) )

Oh - forgot to say - yes I would absolutely send theamazingkungfupanda's Letter Of Fire (TM).

It would help a lot. She's come to see you, you've been non-committal. You've headed her off with saying you'd get a proper valuation, but that will have perked up her hopes a bit. She's now probably racking her brains to think how best to carry on the attack - obviously blackmailing you over contact is her best ploy at the moment. I honestly think that if you send the letter and make it CLEAR that you aren't going to sell the land, that might be the end of it. Her grip is failing a bit, so go for it!

I think you should send the email as well. It can be very hard to stand firm face to face with someone as manipulative as that. If you send the email then you can just refer her back to that each time it's mentioned, "I have already said what I had to say in the email I sent you P, I will not discuss it anymore", then leave the room and take a few deep breaths/eat chocolate/neck some vodka etc.

Another lurker wishing you all the best Ninja. I too am utterly astonished at the sheer unbelievable cheek of your DB and his mum. ASTONISHED. And shocked. Enjoy your weekend, send the email, then stand well back whilst the emotion bomb goes off.

All of that ^^^. It all is excellent advice, every post.
Ninja, I so hope you stay strong.