to think that the middle-classes suck the very soul out of parenting (and life in generally actually)?

[bejeezus]

Ive been on/reading a few threads- about Unconditional Parenting, Attachment Parenting, Steiner blah blah blah. 99.9% of each of these 'philosophies' is common sense, the other 0.1% is deranged and warped interpretation of what started out as a description of common sense.

I am sick of people researching and 'reading round' subjects, analyzing and LABELLING EVERY activity and aspect of growing kids. People (and animals!) have been doing it since time began.

Is it because middle-classers have all been raised by nannies/ have no parental role-models/ have poles up their asses/ lack imagination/ HAVE no intuition/ have no faith in their abilities/ need to feel superior - WHAT is it??

What is wrong with intuition, spontaneity and getting it wrong? in fact I bet my socks there is some research some-where, that says that those are essential aspects of child-rearing and if you dont embrace them whole-heartedly, your childrens teeth will fall out/ they will loose the ability to speak and be in prison by the age of 25 years and 7 months.

Why am I bothered?;

I said on a Steiner thread in parenting that 'I hate wooden toys and all they stand for'

Then I got to thinking; actually I hate what they now stand for but I DONT hate wooden toys. I love wooden toys; the smell, the feel, the memories. But we used to scavenge the tips for timber/rob neighbours fence posts then get dad/grandad/uncle to help us build go karts/benches/huts with an excess of nail string and glue. Where is the soul and creativity in parents spending a weeks/ a months wage (or even a penny) on some imported sustainably sourced wooden toy fashioned by a stranger or mass produced in a factory? It has no more educational/ developmental value than a brightly coloured plastic toy. It is not more enjoyable for the child. It is more enjoyable for the parents BECAUSE IT LOOKS NICE IN THEIR HOUSE!!

Middle class parents are like the anti-Rastamouse;

'always there to make a good thing bad'

Class War- Bring it!

Well bestisyettovcome that certainly wasn't my intention and I apologise if it came accross that way

thread I am guilty as charged in regards to having issues with my own class.

Very WC roots and now educated and leading an MC lifestyle for all intents and purposes...but I will never be MC and frankly, don't want to be. But as a writer married to a lawyer can I reallyc all myself WC with any sort of integrity?

We are the classless perhaps? Which perhaps is too much of a challenge to the status quo. So we are called the nouveau riche. We are told money will never buy us class.

So the middel classes find new ways to define class, which in turn is a way to look down on people. And parenting and all its theories and practices has become the new way to identify oneself.

Perhaps? Just musing.

Is it fair to said that the BLW, sling-wearing, co-sleeping, Fruit Shoot eschewing, Boden wearing middle class parent is often far more child-centric about their own offspring. This parent is more likely to be the one who claims that "We never use the word naughty in our house", who never uses the word no and who is incredulous that PFB might be expected to share his toys - oh the horror! This is the parent who because of these is particularly disliked when they fail to discipline their PFB who has just snatched his toy back from another child whilst they look on smiling indulgently.

Again, not all middle class parents are like this and that sort of PFB indulgence occurs in all classes but to me not only does it appear to be far more prevelant amongst the middle classes but I feel that it may be the reason why the trappings and values of this sector get my goat more than most.

BTW, mamadoc, come to my local city - you could sit with clipboard and count the mothers described on here all day long and not have time for a lunchbreak. :o

wordfactory - you should read a book called "The Clustered World" which describes the multiple social segments (classes) in the US about a decade ago. It is very insightful.

There was a great article in The Economist last week about the globalisation of business education and business schools. It described the people who go to business schools as "polyglot cosmopolitans". I loved the description: that is my "social class".

Apologies for dreadful grammar, trying to do five things at once.

I would say that by using the word 'parenting' in your OP then you are using a middle class word and concept.

I think working class people just raise/ bring up/ drag up their kids. :o

Totally agree with Hassled on this.

Small thing to do with being middle class, 100% about being a twat.

Ah well Bonsoir you have touched on another of my observations of the traditional middle classes: they seem to be almost in denial about global competition and how internationally the world now opperates.

Though this may also be a British problem too.

There is a lot of denial about the globalisation of people in traditional European cultures. Not that there is anything wrong about clinging to outdated social customs and mores - providing you don't mind (or don't mind your children) ending up poor and powerless...

wordfactory and bonsoirinteresting about class definition. I dont have issues with it but am probably 'between classes' definite WC background and married WCbut job is often viewed as making me MC and I know others describe me as MC. I feel WC, I have more in common with WC people, I think it is about shared experiences?--I cant relate to my MC friends childhood/ coming of age experiences

PMSL at the idea that middle class children were all raised by nannies as suggested in the OP!

Agree entirely with Hassled.

jeckadeck you hit the nail on the head. It's a little gang, that has its own 'motifs' and logos, much like any other gang. Wooden toys, banning TV, only eating organic, no sweets etc. They are not really worried about their children so much as following the crowd to the mecca of Mamas & Papas, JoJoMamanBebe and Boden-clad floppy-haired children who can play chess at the age of five. The parents are doing it to make themselves feel more worthy.

Interestingly the only people competitive about parenting I met recently were actually grandparents! When we were on holiday we were pleased because our 5 year old DD1 managed to swim widths of the pool without armbands, and 2 year old DD2 was doggie paddling around with her armbands. A mature lady said how confident they were in the pool and asked me if they were having swimming lessons. I said yes and that they'd just recently started them and that I was pleased they seem to be showing progress.

(I tend to think swimming lessons for babies are nice if you can afford it, but not essential as you can just take them to the pool yourself to get them comfortable with water - DD2 is only having lessons as such because DD1 is and she was desperate to get into the pool... Also we both go to work only recently have we been able to find convenient and not over-subscribed classes, and DD1 was already doing enough activities I thought as a preschooler...)

She went on to say that her grandson (a PFB and PFG by all accounts) has been to swimming lessons since he was 2 months old (hmm - vaccinations?) and that he is now swimming without armbands at 3...oh and at the classes he goes to they don't use "those things" (gesturing at the armbands). I thought "Oh whatever" but said "Well, all swimming instructors have a different approach, good for him though" or words to that effect.

Reminded me of comments about DD1 using a dummy a few years ago "Oh my granddaughter doesn't use one of those things"

ACTUALLY, I AM A SELF PROCLAIMED 'ANTI RASTAMOUSE' (i say it in bold so it is identifiable in what I believe will become a very long thread), but I see what you mean and agree with you OP.

Never been a fan of 'middle class' parenting. My DH and I were not raised that way and actually have a fear of our children somehow becoming like that despite our efforts to keep them grounded IYSWIM.

We are what you would term 'middle class' now, but very 'poor/ working class' roots. I suppose we feel our new found status will somehow dissasociate our child from her background. That is not to say that she will be dissasociated from being working class, but that she will become a stereotype of the 'middle class' individual and adhere to a type of lifestyle we do not approve of.

It is hard to explain, as I am not saying one class is somehow better than the other, but that certain values that traditionally come with belonging to one are lost when you identify yourself with the other. These values usually being the good one's.

One thing I like about most middle class people I know: they tend not to be narrow minded, rigid or fixed in their views.

Middle class and working class are completely redundant terms now. Their application says more about the person using the term than it actually tells you about the person described.

I am going to go out on not much of a limb and say 99.9999% of parents don't actively set out to harm their children. We are (with very few exceptions) all trying to do our best with the resources, both internal and external, that are available to us.

Apart from you thinking that the wooden toy, Boden wearing, breastfeeding, parenting book reading brigade are massive twats, what actual impact do they have on your life? I mean what does it matter if other people have wooden toys?

DS is 4. He has lots of plastic tat and lots of wooden poncery. Some of the wooden poncery sits on a shelf making the playroom look a little bit like a White Company catalogue which is entirely for my benefit, equally some of the plastic tat really is shit and he can't play with it effectively. For example he gets frustrated with his Tomy Thomas train track with self propelled engines and track with points because he isn't quick enough, or dexterous enough, to change the points effectively so we end up with a massive rail disaster within about ten minutes of setting it up. On the other hand his mishmash of Bigjigs/Brio/Ikea wooden train track and trains allows him complete control of exactly what is going on in the game. He prefers it. I'm sorry neither of his grandfathers whittled it by hand whilst smoking a woodbine and mucking out the pigeons, but there it is.

Just doing my best.

Has sweet FA to do with being middle class. That is some chip you have on your shoulders.

wordfactory don't worry about it. My dad was nouveau pauvre and told us he'd far rather be nouveau riche. Don't diss it; enjoy the trappings.

I'm musing now, but in my experience those moving up a 'class' through education or nouse seem to feel they have more to prove than those moving down, for whatever reason (gambling, crime, war). Irrational though, for sure.

Smug parenting: bad idea, what about pride and fall?

The Idle Parent is a fab book. Basically says STOP worrying about your kids, leave them alone to get on with it - provide lots of stimulation and outdoor running-around, stop looking over their shoulders and correcting them, stop BUYING them loads of stuff to make yourself feel a better parent, and teach them to be independent. The author actually says that one of his proudest moments was when his son brought him and his wife breakfast in bed without being asked - he'd made a mess, but he'd done it himself and they got to stay in bed!

Has anyone said that class is about what you aspire to yet? I completely disbelieve that as class has always been defined in this country by financial status.

That is what created the middle classes in the first place, the industrial revolution allowing for a new wealth and class that was founded on trade.

wordfactory, that is interesting. I don't imagine my background is all that different from yours, perhaps a little further removed from WC heritage. Grandfather a train driver, comprehensive educ, beneficiary of that precious thing the university grant, professional. Married to a son of factory workers who is a university lecturer. And yet I self-identify as MC -- I suppose because my dad went to a poly and got a qualification and job as a journalist. And because I speak with RP.

It is all a bit arbitrary. I have to say that you (we?) are not called nouveau riche and are not told that money can't buy you class. That is a fiction, really, and one that is preserved (in general -- not talking about you in particular) as a strategy of holding on to a WC background in the face of a sense of class dislocation like the one you are ascribing to the MC.

In reality we are all floating in a bit of a social void and using random fictions to tie ourselves to a social type.

(None of that is meant to deny the REAL social division between rich and poor)

But people are very tribal and the Middle Class and loud voiced parents are signalling to their peers, just as the ironed haired, Facebook devotees ('Wot'd you say abaat me????') are. It's just about belonging, really.

Or I could just say - What jeckadeck said.

Anyhow, without the lovely Middle Class mummies, I'd have nobody to talk to

yellowstone - nouveau pauver - love it.

I don't worry about my classlessness anymore. There was a time when I felt rootless I think..neither arthur nor martha as my Nan used to say. Then it kinda dawned on me that I have the best of both worlds...a bit Pollyanna-ish no doubt, but genuinely how I feel.

I think also that when you've been very poor indeed you don't worry about what others think of your money and how you made it, even half as much as you enjoy having it .

thread - I wonder if my own DC will identify as MC? On the one hand they are growing up with the trappings (private school, prof parents yadda yadda) yet on the other, DH and I have parented them very differently to their peers.

I hope they'll be classless too, actually, or one of Bonsoir's polyglot cosmopolitans which sound slike it might be a hoot.