to think that the middle-classes suck the very soul out of parenting (and life in generally actually)?

[bejeezus]

Ive been on/reading a few threads- about Unconditional Parenting, Attachment Parenting, Steiner blah blah blah. 99.9% of each of these 'philosophies' is common sense, the other 0.1% is deranged and warped interpretation of what started out as a description of common sense.

I am sick of people researching and 'reading round' subjects, analyzing and LABELLING EVERY activity and aspect of growing kids. People (and animals!) have been doing it since time began.

Is it because middle-classers have all been raised by nannies/ have no parental role-models/ have poles up their asses/ lack imagination/ HAVE no intuition/ have no faith in their abilities/ need to feel superior - WHAT is it??

What is wrong with intuition, spontaneity and getting it wrong? in fact I bet my socks there is some research some-where, that says that those are essential aspects of child-rearing and if you dont embrace them whole-heartedly, your childrens teeth will fall out/ they will loose the ability to speak and be in prison by the age of 25 years and 7 months.

Why am I bothered?;

I said on a Steiner thread in parenting that 'I hate wooden toys and all they stand for'

Then I got to thinking; actually I hate what they now stand for but I DONT hate wooden toys. I love wooden toys; the smell, the feel, the memories. But we used to scavenge the tips for timber/rob neighbours fence posts then get dad/grandad/uncle to help us build go karts/benches/huts with an excess of nail string and glue. Where is the soul and creativity in parents spending a weeks/ a months wage (or even a penny) on some imported sustainably sourced wooden toy fashioned by a stranger or mass produced in a factory? It has no more educational/ developmental value than a brightly coloured plastic toy. It is not more enjoyable for the child. It is more enjoyable for the parents BECAUSE IT LOOKS NICE IN THEIR HOUSE!!

Middle class parents are like the anti-Rastamouse;

'always there to make a good thing bad'

Class War- Bring it!

Ok OP you have a bit of a point in that I also find people who are overly reliant on books and philosophies and especially those who enthusiastically proselytise about them somewhat irritating but reading a little bit about someone else's ideas on a problem and taking the bits that help you is surely a good idea.

The much greater problem in our society is really ignorant parenting. Children starting school unable to speak because no-one talks to them, no books in the house so no chance of learning to enjoy reading, takeaways and chicken nuggets every night. That's what should really be concerning you. I'm solidly middle class so I probably shouldn't be allowed to comment but as I'm also impoverished enough to live on a council estate and have a job that brings me into contact with all sectors of society I think I do know whereof I speak.

£66 for sensory stuff for a normal baby? Wtf! Whats wrong with the real world ffs?

My children eat crisps. But not all the time. I don't want them to just eat crisps, whenever they feel like it. I struggle to find reasons to say 'no' sometimes, when they're wearing me down.

Problem solved. From now on, I'll just say 'because we're Middle Class, darling'.

thebestisyettocome where did I say working class children didn't slog their guts out as well,I just think that if you work hard that is all that matters working class ,middle class ,banana class they should all be treated the same ,what grieves me is that because they are "midddle class" that somehow makes them less deserving in some parts of the press .What I mean is that I do all those things in my post ,just like a working class or upper class person or anyone else does,but beacuse I am middle class they are somehow less valuable

The message seems to be that if you are any other class but "middle class" you deserve something if you are "midde class" you clearly got it through underhand means .

writer I have a theory about the parenting industry: the middle classes are losing, possibly have lost, their position in society partly because the traditional professions they enter just no longer pay enough to sustain the lifestyle they aspire to.
Partly also because of the huge increase in people from WC backgrounds who also entered those professions too.

Thus the middel classes, divested of their traditional position in society have to invest in other things which make them stand apart from the masses...thus the birth of parenting theory and not far behind the parenting industry which takes advantge of it and makes money from it...I give you as exhibit number one: mumsnet.

"It is quite amazing to me that we managed to bring up a happy, healthy 7 yo who is top of her class, confident and outgoing, with lots of friends. And I never spent a minute fretting about any of it grin"

Agree portofino - it's when you look back you realise just how ridiculous things are now. Just for example A child who only allowed wooden toys isn't any more imaginative than a child that watches tv, has loads of plastic noisy tat and gets to play on the computer all day. They forget toys were made out of wood because there was nothing else to make them out of, not because of some parenting value that it is nowadays.

My teens have been dragged up and they are lovely teenagers who anyone would be proud of.

mrswoodentop. That was the implication.

Lettherebecake -for context- I am from a working class/ underclass background. with immediate family leaning towards middle class (as a side effect, not due to any aspirations for social-climbing)

Where do you people live where this kind of behaviour is rife?? I'm guessing certain parts of London?

Round where I am people think I am a loon for breastfeeding at all, not spooning jars of mush in at 12 weeks and owning a sling. I was relieved to come on here and find some people who think this stuff is normal.

OTOH I am looked down on by my SIL for not knowing what a multi-sensory class is, never having massaged my child or taken her swimming and feeding her stuff we are eating rather than special organic purees.

Does this mean I am lower middle class perhaps?

FoofffyShmoofffer lol at middleclass Brian!

Hmmm could it be that those mc parents who don't conform to your stereotype are criticised by the Wednesday morning starbucks group?

Perhaps wordfactory, although I also think the parenting "industry" comes from the fact that the vast majority of mums these days are well educated and usually have responsible jobs by the time they have children. They're used to policies and practices and well ordered time tables and then along come babies with their utter randomness. They are used to commanding respect, delivering, working on things, and getting results and they feel a bit at sea with this screaming little creature who is "perfect" one day and a total mess the next. They need a timeline and a set of expectations, they need to manage and control everything that happens and the classes and toys and books make them feel like they can achieve that. It's hard to accept that as a parent you're really just a caretaker. You watch what is happening and respond to that as best you can, you wipe bums and feed and the rest happens regardless of you. The amount of control you can have is pretty tiny really.

This is now going the way of that other very similar thread started by the OP in which armies of, really quite smug imo, people come on and say how they never worried about anything ever, never questioned any decision ever etc etc and now their dc are the most wonderful teens/adults ever known. I'm sure they are. Great. Why is it a problem if others do question themselves, do a bit of research etc?

Thanks for putting me on that list, though, good company

mamadoc, not London, no (sadly) but in the South/East of England.

pinkytheshrinky Yes- I realise Steiner began in Europe but many proponents and devotees these days seem to be American- certainly most of the websites I have come across are. Of course many of these people seem to take what they want from the philosphohy rather than adopt it whole.

thebestisyettocome

At least the benign neglect devotees don't ram it down the rest of our throats.
Really? Maybe you need to spend a little more time on MN then...

FoofffyShmoofffer- brian is a MN joke...

mdowdall- hahahahaha is all I have to say to your list- yeah Pagwatch the great Steiner enthusiast. Personally, I parent by instinct in the main, and I am confident that I am a good parent most of the time.
Yes I am mc, but I don't feel a need to justify that nor am I 'desperate' to be seen to be mc- class is innate, I am what I am and what others think I am does not overly concern me.
I do not judge others on their background, still less their parents' backgrounds- I judge people by their words and actions in the present.

I just want to know what the defnitions of working class and middle class really are. I am really interested to know why you consider yourself to be working class and not middle class bejeezus - what is it that defines you?

Is it to do with the kind of job you do? What your parents do? Where your house is? The way you speak? The way you were educated? And what about people on benefits - what class are they?

Please someone tell me because I'm never sure which class I am, so I don't know whether or not to be offended by this thread or not :o

I don't think parents are caretakers - in fact, I think that that attitude is the very reason so many children arrive at school with almost non-existent social skills these days, and deficient language skills. IMVHO children need a mass of guidance and teaching in the early years. What you rarely require, however, is a lot of industrially produced equipment to do so. Parents often buy the books and equipment but fail to do the (real hard work) of child-rearing.

"I also think the parenting "industry" comes from the fact that the vast majority of mums these days are well educated and usually have responsible jobs by the time they have children"

The vast majority of middle class mothers. maybe. The majority of mothers in general, I doubt it IMHO.

Working class and middle class are very outdated terms for describing social segments. Society's segments are a lot more complicated/numerous these days than those outdated terms capture.

Wordfactory, you identify "middle classes" as people in liberal professions, but only those there who aren't "from WC backgrounds", and then you say that they need to distisnguish themselves in new ways because the old way of simply being wealthier is no longer available.

That is quite a combination of job-related, wealth-related, and background-related criteria for class assignation and so it brings to the forefront the lack of sharp ideas we have about class -- an unclarity that just makes class-terms an easy route to finding an "other" for the purposes of, admittedly enjoyable, other-bashing.

And in relation to your theory, it is also worth pointing out (and actually I think this is the key thing about the inverse snobbery on Mumsnet, which gads about as prolifically and joyfully as the non-inverse snobbery here) that the many people from working-class backgrounds with education and a place in the liberal professions are rather prone to feeling a sense of class dislocation that makes them hold on imaginatively to their WC heritage by castigating the "middle classes" of which they are now most definitely a part.

I'm with portofino too.
I brought up my teen without MN and he is a lovely, well adjusted boy. I honestly don't remember what age he was potty trained or when he was weaned. I just used instinct and went with the flow.
And there wasn't such a huge debate about bf/ff, people just went with what they were comfortable with. I'm always amazed about the arguments that ensue when the subject comes up on mumsnet.
I also think there's just TMO and far too many labels now, it would have done my head in as a first time mother.

For the record ,I didn't baby led wean whatever that is I just fed the children what they seemed to need at the time ,for ds1 that was organic spinich or ds3 it was mini rolls!My boys have guns and an xbox (Will admit that I hate it) and plastic toys.Most of my friends think i am mad becauuse i cant being doing with reading levels etc as longs as they are happy and can read by the time they need to for exams .They are also dressed in tesco clothes not mini boden

I really hope I don't set out to make things bad ,that people might think of me like that makes me want to hide under a stone and feel ashamed ,i just want to be judged for myself not my class

I'm just amazed that people have so much time on their hands to get annoyed about how OTHER people parent. Just ignore it!

lecce
'is now going the way of that other very similar thread started by the OP'

?dont think thta was me-which thread do you refer to?

Leaving/ignoring aside the middle class reference.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I actually was a bit like that! with my precious first born. It's so funny to look back now, especially as DD2 just makes do with whatever toys are lying around. Not that I was into the whole wooden toy looking nice in house, not enough money for that. BUt just being really precious about DS1, reading lots of parenting books, what was the best method,how should we proceed, reading 'The Continuum Concept'. Etc etc, went to look at a Stenier school and actually a lovely school, lovely children and interesting concept BUT in the end I thought it was all rather extreme and dogmatic; i.e children must NEVER watch tv, they MUST NOT have plastic toys. And they seemed to do rather a lot of knitting and making their own felt slippers. Make of it what you will.
The reason I read so many books and felt so unsure are because i was first time parent and probably quite fearful, wanting to do the right thing, not trusting instincts, listened to too many other peoples advice and it made me feel really stressed. I went to every baby group, baby massage going, baby einstein! Who knows if it made a difference, but I wouldn't say it harmed DS.
Now I am much more, totally relaxed about it all. DD2 is a doddle but I still haven't quite given up the habit of parenting books! Everytime DS goes through a stage of being a bit of a horror, I think' what are we doing wrong', and pick up my unconditional parenting book, before abandoning it again because I don't quite understand it!
There is one book i would like to read, there was an article in The Guardian about it, the book about precisely what you are saying OP that actually some of us are trying too hard...and it's just not necessary and we should relax about the whole thing