to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

And if people want to say that I killed my baby, then that's fine if they really feel that need (and they obviously do).

queenmary - you're back.

Care to ask my earlier questions, especially with regards the scare-mongering post on page 32?

"You are pro-choice, then."

Not sure how you came to that conclusion

bubbley...if a much wanted pregnancy results in an early delivery of a baby that is very different to the unwanted 25wk pregnancy and termination. Whilst I do believe that this is a baby, my emotional self and recognition of the developing human tells me it is, I still defend the right for a woman to abort this baby in extraordinary circumstances.

Whilst you seem to think 'the right support' will ensure the birth of a baby you fail to accept that for some women holding that baby at the end will not right all wrongs. You are compelled to defend the 'defenceless' and yet do not defend the woman whose body this other life depends upon. You are willing to sacrifice her emotional, mental and even physical health for this other life. You would rather see the 12 yr old rape victim have to sit through 9 months of a developing human that was 'put there' by her rapist, a constant reminder of someone else's power over her body. You then allow that rapist to become a father even though the mother has no desire to mother this child. Let's say in your Utopia the baby is adopted and then searches for it's parents at 18....what then? More counselling?

5 dollar, as has been pointed out a few times now, she asked if I thought she was a murderer. Should I have avoided the question? I'm not sure why people are so appalled anyway - did I take her by surprise by telling her that's what she did? Surely she knew what an abortion was?

Because - you agreed that you don't have the right to tell me what I can do with my own body.

" Do you - or should you - have the right to tell me what to do with my own body? Yes or no "

This is a pro choice slogan, but it doesn't work.
An abortion is not something YOU do to YOUR body, but something SOMEONE ELSE (a Dr) does to SOMEONE ELSES BODY.

The pro choicer is demanding that the state provides a Dr to kill her baby for her, and to do it in a safe way so that she comes to no harm in the process.

Abortion depends on the hiddeness of the baby. If we could see the baby the process would be far too repugnant for most people to countenance.

From a practical point of view it would be far easier to deliver the fetus first, and then kill it, but the objection to that is more aesthetic than moral.

"I do agree abortions should be allowed in certain cases (rape, physical problems with the baby or Mother etc) " is what you said Strawberry. you are inconsistant.

why do you think a child born of rape is less deserving of protection?

I'm just saying - if you want to say that I killed my baby (which was a pre-8 week feotus, for the record), that's fine - knock yourself out.

I don't have a problem with it.

Df... It's because prolifers don't really think life=life, they think some life=life.

"for some women holding that baby at the end will not right all wrongs. "
I didn't say it would - that is why I said about temporary/permanent care.

" You are willing to sacrifice her emotional, mental and even physical health for this other life."

Are you trying to suggest that an abortion may not also have the same consequences?

5 dollar - does anyone have the right to tell you to do something that isn't enforced by law?

It is to do with my body (and it is performed by someone who is willing to carry out the procedure) so you're obviously saying you have the right to tell me what to do with it, then. As long as we're clear.

Please answer the question about the scare-mongering in your post on page 32.

Add message | Report | Message poster CrapolaDeVille Tue 14-Jun-11 20:29:10
Df... It's because prolifers don't really think life=life, they think some life=life.

Not true for all prolifers. Just as not all pro-choicers like the idea of late term abortions.

Actually yes, I am suggesting that most abortions will not have the same consequences. For most adult women that choose abortion (and ftr it's the more aspirational teens that choose to terminate) it is the right decision with little regret.

I have met one woman in RL who thinks all life is life, not surprisingly she was an Evangelical Christian who thought believed in 'laying of hands' and 'healings' on the TV. Mad as batshit.

"Are you trying to suggest that an abortion may not also have the same consequences?"

Why are you assuming that it will?

Lots of (braver than me) posters have come on thread to say that they have had abortions and were perfectly ok afterwards.

On what possible grounds is it easier to deliver a foetus then kill it queenmary ??? surely, as a midwife, you know that's imposinle with all suction terminations? So what do you propose, waiting until the foetus needs delivering at 18 or so weeks then induce labour then kill the foetus? Because that's easier or more practical how?

flippin, why are you assuming that it won't. There have been links posted and some posters saying they haven't felt ok about it afterwards.

Impossible - bloody iphone

Crapola - not everyone who thinks life is life is an evangelical Christian who believes in faith healing nice stereotyping.

Part of the process of becoming an adult in our society is the gradual extension of the rights over our own bodies. At 16 we can have sex, at 18 we can get a tattoo, we are gradually allowed to make the decision about what goes in our bodies, be it good or bad for us. Once we are 18 we can drink ourselves into the grave if we wish. Suicide is not illegal, we have the right to decide what we do with our own bodies. We can knowingly infect ourselves with deadly diseases should we wish.

To be an adult is to have body autonomy. Unless you are a woman it seems. Those who seek to deny us the right to fully determine our bodily autonomy seek to infantalise women, to deny us fully adult rights over our own bodies.

Women have fought for centuries for the right to determine for ourselves what happens to us and our bodies. We are no longer forced into marriage. If we choose to marry we no longer permanently recind the right to say whether or not we want to have sex. And we no longer are forced to endure unwanted pregnancies.

If you don't believe in abortion by all means don't have one. No one is going to force you. But by the same token don't you dare presume to tell me what I can and can't do with my own body.

I'm not 'assuming' that it won't, because funnily enough I don't presume to tell other people how they will or won't feel.

I'm going by what other people have said - that they had an abortion and felt ok afterwards.

Somewhere in this thread queenmary seems to suggest that the pro-chpice people would force a child to abort. Yet this is clearly not what people are saying. They are saying that the choice to do so should be there.

" Lots of (braver than me) posters have come on thread to say that they have had abortions and were perfectly ok afterwards "

But the evidence on here is abundant to the contrary.

fliipin, do you think every woman who has an abortion knows she is going to be ok? I don't see how you can argue that abortion saves emotional distress and physical trauma etc when you don't actually know if that is the case.