to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

YANBU to see why some people have a problem with abortion. Personally it is not something I would consider for myself BUT I would NEVER apply MY opinions to others who might be in situations I've been fortunate enough not to experience.

Thanks for that insight scarlettmummy - because obviously every woman who'se ever had an abortion hasn't thought of it as a baby but only a bundle.

i really don't care about how the mother feels after the abortion

Nice.

I really thought if I worded my OP just so it could turn in to a discussion about the abortion debate, not a debate about abortion. BUt then I ma known for being a bit thick naieve.

Impressed that I have offended both prolifers (by apparenlty calling them thick though I didn't mean to) and pro choice. Have reported the thread sorry for any hurt i may have caused really wasn't meant that way

Having read other forums this is often used as a justification as to why it is ok to abort- that it is not yet a baby. I am just saying that I do not believe that to be the case.

But scarelttsmummy you SHOULD care how these women feel after going through what is for many, a devastating procedure. I am not saying ALL women find it devastating but many do and have regrets or feelings of "what if" for years and years afterwards. These feelings can impact negatively on their mental health and affect their parenting of future children. We owe it to ALL women to offer support if it's wanted after such a procedure. There but for the grace of God and all that.

chibi- you are taken that out of context- it was in response to a comment that i thought abortion was ok if if the mother felt lots of guilt.

I'm polite to pro-lifers, but recognise that we are starting from different places. I don't believe life starts at conception, but most pro-lifers I've spoken with do.

I am staunchly pro-choice. I believe in a woman's right to choose whether or not to proceed with a pregnancy, whether that's as a result of sleeping around, contraception failure, rape, illness or anything else.

I don't ever think a woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term. Not even to help the childless

Scarlett, I'm childless and if IVF doesn't work we won't have kids. I'd hate to think of some poor woman being made to carry on with a pregnancy she doesn't want to satisfy my urge for a family.

lola- you haven't offended me.

pretentiouswasteoftime and onemornign you have actually answered the AIBU questioned asked! A golden [bicuit] for you!

I'm from NI too and am pro-life as are my extended family, DH's family, most of my friends etc. In my opinion life is life and we have no right to stop a beating heart regardless of how old that heart is. I was actually quite shocked to find the stance on mumsnet (of all places!) to be so pro - choice and to read about so many women who have had abortions and feel absolutely no guilt or remorse for their decision. It is just so different to my own real life experience. What I find even worse is the mob mentality that exists when anyone tries to express a different opinion about abortion. In some cases it almost feels that people are 'egging people on' to have an abortion because they/someone they knew did it and it was the 'right decision' - perhaps they need to do this to help to justify their own decision to have one (if they have) - I don't know. As soon as anyone tries to put forward even a slightly pro-life argument they get pounced on and abused. It's a bit ridiculous really but it won't stop me putting my opinion forward because someone needs to tip the balance a little.

and of these too

also, can I just add that when I was at university doing Law I was staunchly pro choice- in fact I did my dissertation on feminist legal theory and was all for taking part in pro choice rallys. I fully understand why women think women have a right to choose. However I changed my opinion after having a child myself and also after speaking to a good friend whose two daughters both got pregnant at 15. There are a lot worse things in life than a baby.

"I'd hate to think of some poor woman being made to carry on with a pregnancy she doesn't want to satisfy my urge for a family"

She may want to carry on because she values the life that she has created and even though she doesn't want to be a mother she knows that someone out there (like you) could be.

'There are a lot worse things in life than a baby' - yes indeed - like people thinking that they can apply a one size fits all policy to the most personal and pressing decisions.

well yes, I agree with you. It is a valid stance and people should be allowed to stand by it IMO

I strive to be vegetarian but I am not 100% through sheer laziness and I wear leather - shoes, bags, belts and so on but I can see how someone would feel very strongly about abortion

Lola - I understand what you're getting at, and broadly, I agree with you. I think some people have been unneccesarily rude in response to your OP and have proven your point that you're not allowed to say anything other than "all pro-lifers are woman-hating, deluded fundamentalists and there are no ethical questions about abortion at all, ever" without being jumped all over.

I am pro-choice but understand that if someone is starting from a belief that a human being is a human being from conception, then they can be against abortion without being anti-feminist. They don't think the foetus is more important than the woman, they think that both foetus and woman are human beings, and that one human being's right to life is more important than another human being's right to make a choice in regard to continuing a pregnancy.

Your comparison to veganism is apt: if your belief is that all animals are equal, then you can believe that it's wrong to eat a cow without believing that cows are more important than humans. You just believe that a cow's right to life is more important than a human's right to choice in what they eat. Makes sense to me.

And I don't get what point people think they're making by writing "baybee" instead of "baby". wtf does that even mean?

wrote such a muddled post. Sounds weird. What I meant is essentially yes, I agree with the points you made in your OP lola

"Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?"

I think a lot of people who argue a pro-choice line do see this. In fact many people who argue for the pro-choice line feel that abortion is abhorrent but also that it is a basic human right to be able to do what you want to your own body even if you are pregnant. I see a lot of posts from people who say - I couldn't have one, but it ought to be available to others.

I don't argue along these lines because I think a lot (not all by any means) of the anti-abortion argument is less about the sanctity of the fetus's life and more about insisting women live with the consequences of their actions. It gets dressed up in a concern for the fetus but mainly it's an attitude that if you have sex (especially without contraception) when you don't want kids it ought to be like a game of Russian roulette. It's basically a nasty form of slut shaming that's really damaging to our social fabric.

bubbleymummy- I think that hits the nail on the head. I wasn't sure what the best response to that comment would be.

I have another friend who recently adopted a baby girl. The babies mother was only fifteen and I am sure going through with the pregnancy was very hard, but she did it and gave the baby up to a couple who have been able to provide her with everything she needs and a lovely life. I think it is an incredibly selfless and lovely thing to do.

I honestly can't see how someone who believes that a woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy they don't want,or one that could cause harm to them, could be considered to be anything other than anti-feminist,even if they're not deliberately,or knowingly so.

cloudydays much better said (and spelled) than my OP. And gets the point I was attempting to make across much better I could ever do.

I find the use of "baybee" pretty obnoxious.

cloudy has actually expressed this very well:

"They don't think the foetus is more important than the woman, they think that both foetus and woman are human beings, and that one human being's right to life is more important than another human being's right to make a choice in regard to continuing a pregnancy. "

Lola,

I also agree that the vegan comparison is relevant although I do slightly wonder how you can consider an animal's right to life but not a foetus'.

Not every baby is so lucky,ScarlettsMummy.

I don't argue along these lines because I think a lot (not all by any means) of the anti-abortion argument is less about the sanctity of the fetus's life and more about insisting women live with the consequences of their actions. It gets dressed up in a concern for the fetus but mainly it's an attitude that if you have sex (especially without contraception) when you don't want kids it ought to be like a game of Russian roulette. It's basically a nasty form of slut shaming that's really damaging to our social fabric.

I think for some that probably is the case, but my uneducated guess is not the vast majority