to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

bubbleymummy - it (sterilisation) only might make some women in certain circumstances reconsider if it's an actual threat, though....?

So surely in that case, you are arguing for it.

5dollar - i don't think you should have the right to tell someone else (a doctor) to terminate another living thing's (the foetus) life regardless of whether or not it is in your body.

Just out of curiosity, do you consider a tapeworm a living thing? Do you consider it as an individual entity or does it belong to its host?

Bubbleymummy

There are other suitable treatments available. I took another medication during my first pregnancy with no ill effects. It was planned with almost military precision with the support of my consultant team.

But they decided to try me on a new drug because many immunosuppresant drugs party their own risks taken on a long term basis, it doesn't even come on prescription a private company deliver to your door in a refrigeration van. We were not trying to fall pregnant,, we knew we would have to make that decision for a second child with the medical team on board (very romantic!)

"Actually msteak I'm not arguing for forcible sterilisation. I was suggesting that it might make some women in certain circumstances reconsider."

So in other words you realise what you said was completely appalling, and are now attempting to backtrack ?

So you're just for blackmailing women that if they have an abortion you will sterilise them so they can't ever have children.

Thats so much better. And you'd like to see far more children in care. What a utopia you would make for us all.

Bubbly, your opinions sound positively Nazi-like. Women should be punished or threatened in order to avoid having an abortion. We're not children ffs, we have free will and own our wombs, whether you like it or not. Your earlier comment to a poster, that she killed her baby by having an abortion show what a nasty person you are.

Crap- I happen to know several children in care and a close family member fosters and I don't think they have shit lives at all actually. :)

5 dollar - we just think that the foetus (the human foetus) is entitled to human rights too.

Nobody is frog-marching any doctors into surgery and asking them to perform abortions at gun-point. I have a right to request an abortion from a doctor who is willing to perform the procedure.

And yes, I consider a tapeworm a living thing - it has been born and lives.

Do you - or should you - have the right to tell me what to do with my body?

flippin, if you read a couple of posts down you will see that I acknowledged that it was extreme. I was more wondering what its effect would be rather than actually promoting it.

A polite request to bubbleymummy :)

Do you - or should you - have the right to tell me what to do with my own body? Yes or no.

Yes, it's all sunshine and roses for children in acre.

Cos institutionalised abuse and failed adoptions due to attachment disorder never happen in the lala land which pro-lifers seem to inhabit.

"More wondering what the effect would be..."

Gosh, you're a lovely person.

I mean to say children in care.

Not sure how pro-life the Nazis were

5 dollar - I'm glad you can acknowledge that even a parasite is alive and is its own entity. I wonder why so many prochoicers can not extend the same courtesy to a human foetus.

I consider a tape-worm to be a living thing. However if it is living within my body, I would not hesitate to remove it, killing it in the process. Like any parasite.
Obviously removing a foetus would be far more of a difficult decision, but the bare bones of it are the same. My body, my choice what grows within it, end of story.

Yes, is it alive, because it has been born.

Do you - or should you - have the right to tell me what to do with my own body? Yes or no.

5 dollar - me personally, no, that is what laws are for. Just as the law currently tells you that you can only (except for very rare instances) get an abortion until 24 weeks and just as the law in NI does not allow abortion unless the woman's life is in danger.

Current educational outcomes for children in care
The DCSF recently published outcome indicators for children in care for the 12 months to 30 September 2009.

The report reveals that:

27% of looked after children had a statement of Special Educational Needs, compared to 2.7% of all school children
0.4% of looked after children were permanently excluded from school, compared to 0.1% of all school children
46% of looked after children achieved level 4 in Key Stage 2 English, compared to 80% of all school children
46% of looked after children achieved level 4 in Key Stage 2 Maths, compared to 79% of all school children
Only 68% of looked after children obtained at least one GCSE or equivalent, compared with 99% of all school children
Only 15% of looked after children achieved at least 5 grades A*-C at GCSE, compared to 70% off all school children

Children in care and their mental health:Taking measurements within six weeks of admission to care, more than 30% had elevated levels of mental disorders including conduct disorder, depression, attention deficit hyperactive disorder, autism and anxiety. The most common disorders identified were conduct disorders (28%) and depression (28%).

I can hazard a guess at what the effect might be.

Ok 5 dollar so your stipulation for a something being alive is that it has to be born? So is a 25 week old foetus alive then? What about 38 weeks? I find it very strange that a premature baby in an incubator can be considered alive but a baby tucked away in the womb (a natural incubator) is not.

The above post is just education, we know that children in care suffer the worst outcomes of all children in society.

So you agree that your stance is untenable then, since it involves telling others what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

You are pro-choice, then.

" Your earlier comment to a poster, that she killed her baby by having an abortion show what a nasty person you are "

What was she meant to say?
The poster asked her if she was a "murderer" for goodness sake.
That was a pretty unfair question if the honest answer made her vile and nasty and lacking in compassion.
If she hadn't answered she would have been hounded for avoiding the question.

.

Bubbleymummy - if you go back and read one of my very first posts on this mammoth thread you will have seen me say that I had an abortion in my early 20s. I now have two children and the thought of ever going through an abortion again is actually repellant to me. I cannot imagine a circumstance in which I would ever do it.

However I would also never deign to tell another woman what she can or can't do with her own body. I am 100% pro-choice.

Crapola, I wonder how many of those children were taken into care at birth. I also wonder what controls were used to allow for educational background of the parents and to allow for psychological distress if coming from a dysfunctional home.