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Original poster

to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

1005 replies

LolaRennt · 12/06/2011 15:56

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

OP posts:
bubbleymummy · 14/06/2011 19:28

Why on earth are you comparing sterilisation of people who clearly don't want to have a baby with eugenics? Hmm who is falling short of a decent argument now?

CrapolaDeVille · 14/06/2011 19:31

queen....I'm not hurt.

And Bubbley you haven't answered the question....evasive often means you know there's no good answer.

bubbleymummy · 14/06/2011 19:32

Which question?

CrapolaDeVille · 14/06/2011 19:33

Having an abortion is not saying you never want to be a parent.

Please answer the question regarding SN, incest and rape.

queen.....It's a little odd to post bizarre compliments to someone with a tone of superiority. I've been on MN a long time and that sort of post is weird and a bit creepy.

5DollarShake · 14/06/2011 19:33

Ah, queenmary - you're back from feeding the 6 kids and performing midwifery duties. A couple of questions for you, since you now have the time to post.

  1. As a healthcare professional, was your post on page 32 about what happens after an abortion untrue, and therefore scare-mongering?
  1. Do you - or should you - be able to tell me what to do with my body?

By the way - I've had an abortion in the past. I'm not hurt and I'm not lashing out. Confused

queenmarythegreat · 14/06/2011 19:33

Actually pro lifers are the very opposite of eugenicists.
The ideology behind the move to legalise abortion is built on eugenics.
Read about Margaret Sanger and Marie Stopes and you will learn how much they admired Adolf Hitler and saw abortion as a useful way of ridding the human garden of it's "weeds".
Someone earlier quoted the Freakonomics stats implying that by aborting poor peoples children, the crime rate drops.
That is eugenics.

learningtofly · 14/06/2011 19:34

Tbh I did perceive my foetus as a baby.

When considering what we were going to do I considered how the chemicals in the medication I was taking were affecting that baby. The pain it might cause it, or even was causing it (it has been argued how in utero pain is still felt) how it would function or ever develop with an altered chemical change inside his/her systems. My baby was chemically altered from the minute it was conceived with no way of knowing what the effects would be short term or long term.

Now What I am not saying is all babies with potential disabilities should be aborted as I strongly believe this not to be true. But did I want my baby who I already had maternal feelings for to be medical guinea pig? An experimental folly for the medical profession? It wasn't a chance the medics were actually prepared to take. The number of unknowns were huge.

You might say we chickened out. Perhaps it was a life worth saving. Or perhaps we saved it from a life not worth living. I don't know the answer. But it was loved. I loved it. And I took a tough decision with the very best of intentions and if that makes me a condemned woman so be it.

Not everyone would think how I did. I would extend that courtesy to any woman in the situation of considering a termination. They have their own lives and their own reasons and I refuse to play judge and jury on them. It is their decision to make, not mine.

CrapolaDeVille · 14/06/2011 19:35

Would you like to force the 12 yr old rape victim to have her baby, or the woman who gets a dreadful CVS and already is in poverty with three children under four or say if Fritzl's granddaughter was pregnant when leaving the cellar? Should they be forced to be mothers?

HopeForTheBest · 14/06/2011 19:35

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on request of its author.

queenmarythegreat · 14/06/2011 19:35

" I've had an abortion in the past. I'm not hurt and I'm not lashing out "
Could have fooled me.

Off to read to my children now.

5DollarShake · 14/06/2011 19:36

Goodness - if that's what you count as 'lashing'.... Grin

Again -

  1. As a healthcare professional, was your post on page 32 about what happens after an abortion untrue, and therefore scare-mongering?
  1. Do you - or should you - be able to tell me what to do with my body?
CrapolaDeVille · 14/06/2011 19:39

I'm astonished that queen and Bubbley refuse to answer the tricky ones.....

fucking useless.

5DollarShake · 14/06/2011 19:43

Just point blank refuse - despite repeated requests for answers.

It's all here in black and white for everyone on both sides of the discussion to see. Says it all, really.

flippinada · 14/06/2011 19:44

Why thank you gruffalosma. And may I congratulate you on your spiffing username?

bubbleymummy · 14/06/2011 19:44

Crapola - I think they should be given help and support to continue the pregnancy and either keep the baby or have it taken into care either temporarily or permanently.

Learningtofly - I find it completely tragic that there is no alternative medication available for whatever condition you have that can be safely taken by a pregnant woman.

CoteDAzur · 14/06/2011 19:44

Thank you, scarlett, for honestly admitting that the pro-life viewpoint is entirely emotional. This is fantastic, now we are getting somewhere Smile

scarlettsmummy2 Mon 13-Jun-11 22:17:47
notadudeexactly- I think you make some very good points and can see that is a well thought out argument about the rights of the mother. Certainly if you were to remove emotion from the equation it would be hard to argue against it.

flippinada · 14/06/2011 19:47

"I think this thread has made it abundantly clear where the muddled, emotive, irrational thinking is coming from. Not to mention the vulgar outbursts."

Yep, sure does.

From the pro-life lobby.

MsTeak · 14/06/2011 19:48

Don't want a baby NOW, not doesn't want any children ever. You can't see the difference?

You are arguing for forcible sterilisation. At least own your revolting opinions, have some pride.

bubbleymummy · 14/06/2011 19:48

Crap - I've just answered you. I'm sorry it wasn't fast enough for you Hmm but I do have other things to do too.

5DollarShake · 14/06/2011 19:49

So bubbleymummy - you do think you should have the right to tell me what to do with my body?

bubbleymummy · 14/06/2011 19:53

Actually msteak I'm not arguing for forcible sterilisation. I was suggesting that it might make some women in certain circumstances reconsider. Eg woman using it as contraception (once again - I acknowledge there are not many) and those considering them because of an inconvenience that could actually be overcome eg. Taking a year out/career break whatever.

bubbleymummy · 14/06/2011 19:54

I also pointed out that it was extreme but I see you're latching on to the extremes again.

CrapolaDeVille · 14/06/2011 19:55

I think you must have answered whilst I was posting Smile.

You have answered that you think it's right for them to be forced to be mothers and one of the worst possible outcomes for any child is in care. So realistically Bubbley you would like to sentence both mother and child to a completely shit life.

5DollarShake · 14/06/2011 19:55

Just the touch on the original post, briefly...

"My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?"

Can you see now OP how this line of questioning makes absolutely no difference when discussing the issue with pro-lifers?

With all due respect - it was, at best naive; at worst a little bit arrogant to assume it would make any difference whatsoever. I mean, are you really saying that no-one has thought to put this idea of 'basic human rights' to them before?

It has been put to them several times on tis thread alone (and all previous discussions I have ever been involved in on this topic) but they still don't concede their point.

flippinada · 14/06/2011 19:57

"Maybe there should be a condition for most (not all) abortions that women be sterilised at the same time. Maybe that would help them to consider their 'choice' a bit more carefully"

Well this is what it boils down to with these pro-lifers.

I just can't fathom the mindset of someone who actually thinks this is acceptable point of view.

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