David Cameron welfare reforms-no family will receive more than £25,000 a year.

[Hammy02]

Good idea? I think so. I can't believe a single family receives this much already in benefits. It is about the same as the average income so it would be ridiculous for any one family to have more in benefits than someone that works?

Too right. Glitter. Id give up everything to not have dd disabled. Even if benefits were a mansion and a million pounds its not worth it. Dh would be on 40k by now, after 20 years of full time work and a PhD, if it wasnt for me and dd.
We would have holidays and cars and stuff like everyone else.

I am doing it lyneham. Dh works and we get less moeny than people in benefits. Life sucks but i dont want people surviving on benefits to be made poorer. Why woild I. And the much toutex 25k figure is extremely rare and nas more to do with housing benefit than anything else.

I am trying to have that lifestyle lynaham which you would know if you had read my posts.

This is exactly what I meant yesterday with this them and us thing. It gets wholly exploited by the media and we end up with situations like this.

Lynehamrose is struggling to make ends meet and gets little help.

Riveninside and glitterknickaz are also struggling to make ends meet and get little help.

Net difference? Not a fat lot.

Society always used to be about the haves and the have nots and the contention between them. Now, there's so much infighting between the have nots that we are a house divided.

FWIW, when I had dc1 (1997) I had to go back to work when she was 3 months old. She was unwell, I was unwell, but there was no other option. My friend had a baby the same age. Her then dp earned less than my dh yet with the top ups etc they brought home more than us. When I rang up to ask if we would be entitled to anything (even a pint of milk a day would have been handy) and I was laughed at. I have never felt so small in my life.

So, you see, the welfare system has been in trouble for a long time. It's one big screw up and Cameron will make inroads into making it better/screwing it up more* just like every other politician has. Nothing will really change for the better.

*delete as appropriate

Life's a bowl of cherries innit.

Not sure where that stray 'and' came from

Thank you button for an intelligent and honest post.

Xstitch - i have not made a blanket statement saying all claimants Are financially better off than non claimants. It doesn't matter how Many times you try to suggest I have! I haven't! What I have said is that SOME claimants end up with lifestyle choices which are better than non claimants because the SYSTEM is screwed. Not because people cheat it.

fwiw I do believe it would have been a better lifestyle for 'me to stay at home while my boys were 'pre schoolers. Or even for a measly 12 months fgs. I couldn't do that because we needed the money I earned (after paying childcare!) to pay the rent. Otherwise we'd have lost our home. Some claimants DO have that choice and DO get to stay with their children until they are 4 years old - or even beyond! So yes- in my book that would have been preferable to dashing back to work. Nothing to do with posh houses or that crap - everything to do with time with my babies

riven would your dh not earn more being a self employed contractor?

The real problem with the benefits system isn't things like unemployment benefit or disability allowances, it's housing benefit and tax credits.
The benefits system needs a massive shake up since the primary problem seems that too much money goes to the wrong places.

Tax credits were available up to £58k, a complete nonsense given the average household income was £35k. Money was simply being taken in tax and then given back in another format, minus a sum for admin. Totally pointless. Overall something like 30-40% of all benefits in 2010 went to those who earn more than the average income. That really doesn't make any sense at all.

Also prior to recent changes it was possible to get £2500/month in housing benefit in London (now reduced to "only" £1733/month). The maximum amounts probably only get paid out in a few cases but just that fact that the govt allowed even a few people to have got £30k/year in free housing is something that is hardly going to make the average tax payer feel good. Especially when that money is going straight to landlords and driving up private rents and house prices.

No longer herbie. It ran out last year and i cannot find the form or even if it exists anymore. So i have given up.

Roger, not possible. He is a scientist. You work for someone.
Thats not the point. Im only using our example to say as working poor i do not resent those on benefits getting more. We could choose to join them as could anyone feeling envious. But being on benefits is a pile of shit. It isnt 25k, you lose your house as the mortgage interest isnt paid for 9 months or your landlord evicts you when you stop working because they wont take housing benefit. You lose your future too, and self esteem.
It is no life of riley being on benefits or being working poor.
I blame house prices. When i turned 18, starter houses were three times the averahe graduate salary. So you bought one. After a few years with some pay rises, you had kids and bought bigger but it was still three times your new salary.
Now they are such huge multiples that no one can afford them. Dh is in his 40's. He hasa PHD. His full time salary would buyby no house in this city at three times his salary. Not one house.
That is whats wrong. House prices.

we were a bit like that Button Moon in 1997. The interest rates were going up and only my DH was working. we had no money and my inlaws helped with our mortgage yet on paper we were just over the threshold to receive any help.

Our outgoings meant we had no money yet the DSS are only interested in your income. I think the system does need shaking up.

i also think its a bit of a myth that so much goes to people earning above average income.

AFAIK average income in this country is 24k for a full time person, DH and i both work full time, we each earn less than this, combined income of £26K - £40K (variable as i am commision based and DH is self employed) for the past 3 years it's been closer to the £26K we have 1 DC and pg with 2nd, we get £40 per month.

the people who get tax credits on £58K PA i'll assume only get the childcare element which is 70% of childcare costs. in which case not only are they paying more into the system through their taxes, and the childminder/nurseries taxes

I agree that it is house prices and lack of social hopusing that is causing alot of the problems. I was 20 when i bought my first house 13 years ago and it was 33k. I earned 12k p/a and dh earned about 18k iirc. Well compare that to 13 years later! The same house now would cost about 130k and I would, if doing the same job, earn about 18k p/a. It speaks for itself really

Agreed on the house prices thing/lack of social housing. Ultimately this is the banks fault. They lent people too much (too many salary multiples) so house price inflation surged ahead unchecked. This filters into the rental market too.

It is all very depressing, going back to the original point though as I said earlier up it is a cheap headline trying to make you think that the country is full of scroungers living the life of riley. I'm lucky that I don't need help, I certainly don't begrudge a penny to those that do. Unlike the money used fighting wars we should stay out of and NHS 'reforms' that cost more than they will save.

Thanks herbie. I appreciate it.

roger - round here 2 bed flats start at 155k.

finganjeff - not just banks fault, its supply and demand.... more single households, people living longer, imigration. but how do you solve this without concreting over the whole of the south of england?

When I was a homeowner (yes, me, really.... I DID own property once for all those who made assumptions about my lifestyle cos I'm on benefits) my house cost £62,500.

The same house sold last month for £160,000 according to nethouseprices.
Wage rises can't compare. Same for the rental market price increases.

That encouraged benefits dependency as far as HB goes.

I havent read the full 27 pages so not sure if I am about to upset people but I have just worked out how much we get in benefits.
Adding it up in a year we get £13,356.
I work fulltime but my DH currently doesnt and is claiming ESA for his condition. We dont own our own home though we rent a 2 bedroom house privately in South West London ( we have 2 dd's and I am pg with number 3 ) and the bulk of the payments keep the roof over our heads.

People earning 58k did not get anything towards childcare. When dh was earning 40k we got the standard basic amount of ctc - about £40 per month/£500 per annum. Everybody who earned more would've got the same.

However, since dh was out of work they wanted to pay us over £600per month. We declined as if dh then got a similar income to before (which we're anticipating) they'd want it all back. So we currently claim (and get) nothing (other than CB).

We are very lucky that in former days of plenty dh had the sense to save (I know plenty of people go on about the cost of living but we have a mortgage, 3 kids etc etc and still managed to save lots on £40k per year ) which has seen us through this tough time. But when you bring in what your modest outgoings are or less I appreciate you can't put anything by and save yourself the hassle of dealing with the government all the time.

Even dealing with them long enough to decide we weren't going to bother was hard work - it's a full time job in itself!

How can you not claim ctc? Jsa no longer has a childcare bit as its ctc. So you are living on £65 per week jsa?

We're in our 30s and being able to afford a mortgage is sadly a pipe dream and thats on two incomes

Riven No, not claiming anything apart from basic ctc and cb. I rang ctc to ask about how no income would affect it, and how then regaining a similar income would affect things. On balance we decided it was not worth the hassle.

As I said previously, we have been saving for years so we're living off that. It sticks a bit but this is not really the place to say that

lyneham we bought in 96 near London and have been moving steadily north since. So now we live in a good sized 4 bedroom house which is still worth less than our original home counties 2 bed flat sold for a couple of years ago - madness. We've been very lucky to have been able to take advantage of geography.

Lyneham us too, actually dh is 40 now.

Indeed the whole story: we had a home, a small modest one. DH becmae very ill and although he managed to hang on to his job, he was off on sick for a long time and we had to sell up and move to rented.

What happened then is the stuff of MN history: at one point we had 4 jobs between us, I was owrking as admin for a well known cancer charity by day and at a college admin office by evening; dh his job by day and self employed by night.

DS1 was diagnosed with ASD. I went off to college to try and change tack - please not that DH by then had a bloody good job as a Manager for a well known logistics firm- as childcare dried up. DS3 was diagnosed with ASD, I went to uni to change tack as childcare dried up, I graduated with palne to teach and a firm set of plans. DS3 failed spectacularly at school and had to be transferred to an SNU, meaning I had to be home for transport 9am and 3pm (try finding a childminder who is in her house for drop off at those times!). DH still did 2 jobs, I did caring and after a year started to study part time. DH was made redundant. He's now retraining and a year away from qualifyinga nd still doing one job, I am a year of qualifying assuming that I get my dissertation in on time/ In April ds4 failed his checks and since has regressed into ASD; he is suposed to satrt the LEA Nursery class September but they are refusing to give him any induction time and so I suspect he will not get that- where we are everyone gets that part time and it is basically a year R that he can't access. Local childminder is already full (she's a mate, mortified she can;t help). Last month I went to the school for parent's evening to be corberd by the HEad who gently explained that ds3 needs urgent assessment as he has clear symptoms of ADHD (genetically related to ASD) and is struggling. he is being seen for an initial ppt next week, we went through teh DSM and instead of ticking 6 boxes as per criteria we ticked every one. he is ten, I ahve clearly failed him by missiing this.

Are we subject to caps on housing? Yes. Are the council able to fund us HB for a house bigger than 4 bedrooms? not any more. Will social services allow us to live in a house smaller than 4 bedroms (they said if ds4 gets an asd dx they may say 5)? nope. Will anyone locally allow us to take up a tenancy given DH is working self emplyed? no. Insurers don't accept SE incomes. We're in our nice-area-for-the-region 9and that's Wales so not South EAst) etc making do with a converted dining room for ds3 and with 3 year old ds4 in with us. We are happy to do that: why move if we don;t have to? But if anything else goes wrong we will lose the palce as we only get part HB and as the system meant to be there has been removed effectively goodness knows what will happen.