to find some modern aspects of feminism patronising to women?

[glitterkitten]

I say "modern aspects" as i am more than aware that historical feminist activism has led to my being able to work in a professional job, has given me choices, has improved the general quality of life for women since etc etc.

An example of what i find patronising to the extreme is the recent protest by feminist groups at the opening of the Playboy Club in London.

wild haired, wild eyed women waved placards and protesting about how playboy exploit women, how evil men were manipulating women and that essentially, women who worked within such industries needed to be saved.

how can these women think that they need to save other women, who are simply exercising their right to make independent choice regarding how they make a living?

these women will deny / ignore the fact that some women working in such an industry (in all its guises) CHOOSE to earn a living that way. they earn a good wage, shock horror, they may even ENJOY it!

i find it so patronising. Intensely.

as i said above, i work in a professional career. i have no issues with strip clubs, lap dancing bars, playboy etc. i have accompanied my husband to such clubs on occasion. those women if anything, are taking advantage of the men who sit and dribble at them. the women have the last laugh with the money they make which is undoubtedly higher than the national minimum wage. would a feminist seek to tell me i am wrong??

Please listen to me OP.

You have been to lapdancing or strip clubs with your dp. Some lapdancing and strip clubs use trafficked women and women who are victims of abuse or have drug problems.

There is a chance that you and your dp have paid to watch women strip who are in that position.
I don't know how big the chance is because I don't know how many you have been to or where they were. What I do know, is that because the ones that exploit trafficked women do not have a big sign up at the front advertising the fact, you cannot guarantee that it is not the case.

The fact that some of the women who work in these places are doing so willingly and some may enjoy it and some certainly earn above the minimum wage, is irrelevant, because as a customer you are not able to ensure that it is only the women in this position that you watch.

I am assuming you are a decent person. I am assuming you would not wish to pay money to see women forced to strip (though unfortunately we know from websites where men who use these places talk about it, that some of the customers actually get off on it ). I am assuming that if you knew that it was the case that a particular club was using trafficked women or women with drug problems, you wouldn't go to it. But you also don't have any way of knowing that it wasn't. That is why I think you are naive. The other possibility is that you don't care and are happy to take part in that exploitation and frankly that is too horrible to contemplate.

thank you for reading this post and taking it seriously.

The only documentary (that I have seen) of a woman who CHOSE to work in the industry had serious body issues. Wanted lipo on her gorgeously slim and toned legs (I say that as a thin woman myself) thought she was ugly, was her only way of getting attention and DELIBERATELY dumbed herself down to fit in. Paris Hilton is also known for doing this 'dumbing down' because it sells she said!

Oh do get a grip OP. There is nothing hysterical here, just you not getting the 'ooh yes I agree, girl power' Katie Price crap you were looking for.

The sex industry, of which lapdancing etc is part, exploits women.
Some of them may choose this life, for whatever reason, but all women suffer from the continuation of this objectification of women.

melted, one of those women had short greying hair.
I guess that might be pretty wild for someone so at home in a stripclub.

From "wild haired, wild eyed women" to "widly hysterical responses" unfortunately you shot yourself in the foot in your OP by trying to debate from a biased viewpoing using derogatory insulting language.

What do you make of my very relevant comments on male prostitution?

I actually know someone who has made the choice to work as a prostitute in Glasgow. She doesn't talk about it in such terms but everyone knows what she does. She is probably the freedom of choice example the OP is talking about. In her case, freedom of choice means earning cash in hand twice a week, opting out of paying tax, claiming disability benefits, dropping out of her university course as a mature student, not choosing a career in any other field, never having a long term relationship but yes, not having to go into an office each day to work. She is 54 now and work is drying up but she still makes some money. Attractive woman but IMHO dresses very tarty to get noticed and her dancing is horrible to watch. Completely oblivous if you tell her though.

When I was very young and very poor, I worked as a waitress in a dodgy bar up in town.

Had to wear a tiny leotard and bitty little skirt.

Have to say to you OP, it was a mortifying experience. Yes - good money. No, wasn't pawed (much) or forced to shag. But it was DISGUSTING and HUMILIATING having unattractive, desperate men leering at me all evening and making comments about my body.

It was VILE. Only young, skint women do these jobs, because older, confident women would end up lamping the customers.

And what galled me most of all was knowing that someone was making big bucks out of me being humiliated. Much more than I was making putting myself on display every night.

Seriously OP - lap dancers and pole dancers are simply there as wanking aids for (mainly) unattractive men. S'not nice.

OP, I suppose that if you don't know anything about feminism, haven't read into this subject and have only spoken to women who say they enjoy it, then you might think that way.

However, as a self-styled intelligent and professional woman, I would have thought you'd have the common sense enough to read up on the subject before coming on here and calling some other women 'wild-haired and wild-eyed' who might very well be posters here.

Beertricks asked:
^Would you do it, glitter?
Would you be happy for your daughter to do it?

Serious question. If not, why not?^

Did you answer this yet? I am genuinely intrested in the answer too.

Leaving aside the whole issue of free choice or coercion for a moment, strip clubs, lap dancing clubs, pole dancing clubs and brothels all serve to continue the objectification of (mostly) women by (mostly) men and reinforce the idea that a woman's worth can be judged by her appearance or her willingness to supplicate to a man. It reduces the women to being property that can be paid for.

glitter kitten what is your view on the porn industry? The parallels are obvious between both situations, one could even argue that a strip club is merely a live action version of a porn film. The whole 'choice' argument is just as valid (or indeed invalid) for both as well since many women 'choose' to become porn 'stars' but a great many are also coerced or forced into it. However in both cases, that of films or clubs, the choice of the minority is largely irrelevant as the key issue is what message their participation sends to society at large. That message is that it is normal and acceptable to treat a woman as a piece of meat, purely there for your pleasure, that the woman herself has no worth outside of what gratification she can give a man, in exchange for a small amount of money.

Nobody should be treated in that way, regardless of gender, age, race or social standing but the reason that feminists go all wild eyed on the subject is that the overwhelming majority of people abused by the sex industry as a whole are indeed women, so it becomes an equality issue as well as a protection issue.

Reality been there - Young Farmers Assocation. I ended up so fed up being groped I threatened to pour hot gravy over the next one. Wankers.

'i have no issues with strip clubs, lap dancing bars, playboy etc. i have accompanied my husband to such clubs on occasion'
I think some people subconsciously feel less threatened by it if they 'go along' with the illusion that it is a harmless bit of fun that women choose or even enjoy.
It is degrading to women end of, not just those who do it, but all women.

'the choice of the minority is largely irrelevant as the key issue is what message their participation sends to society at large.'

Totally agree with the above point PiousPrat

OP- would you let your daughters, sisters or mother work at a playboy bar?

Would your father be proud if you worked there?

I keep hearing of these women who work in the sex industry by choice, but I haven't yet come across any.

I have met many compelled to work in the sex industry due to their addiction or their 'boyfriend' or father/step-father pimping them out though. I am thankful to say I have not met any yet that were trafficked here from abroad, but my colleagues have.

glitterkitten - I don't think I have been nysterical. Actually, I don;t think anyone has. people have disagreed with you - but that's not exactly the same thing.

Anyway, please answer the question. Would you be happy for your daughter to choose to work as a prostitute?

You feel, like many others, the need to draw attention to the idea that there may be some women who enjoy working in the sex industry. This only serves to draw attention to the fact that you are seeking to hide - many women do not enjoy it and are damaged by it.

However much some women may enjoy working in the sex industtry, I can see a direct line from strip clubs/lap dancing establishments, through sexual harassment on the street to the inability of many men to appreciate the fact that a woman has the sole right to say what happens to her body.

The minority of women who choose (rather than are forced into it by lack of choice) to enter the sex industry are indirectly responsible for my daughter's inability to walk down the road, minding her own business, without being harassed and assulted by men. Once we accept that men have the right to buy and sell women's bodies, then where does it end? Is it worth considering that the assult on women's rights to say what goes on inside their uteris coincides with the explosion in lap dancing clubs and the pornification of our culture?

To me the Playboy Club is a rather sweet old-fashioned kind of thing so it would not be a particular target in my eyes. It even seems rather old-fashioned to protest about it when you consider whats out there now, lapdancing clubs etc.

There are much worse unsavoury examples of women's sexual exploitation out there e.g. tits-and-arse advertising and the sheer ubiquity of it makes it particularly oppressive.

'sweet old fashioned thing'. This is Playboy right?

Sorry but allowing rich men to pay £15,000 for life time membership, to be served by girls dressed as bunnies and goodness knows what else will go on, just further encourages some men's belief in their superiority to women.

That leathery old octogenerian Hefner has made millions out of providing wank material featuring an endless stream of ever younger, ever more desperate, ever more plastic-filled girls (not to mention his kingdom of bunny merchandise tat aimed at kids). So sweet. So very, very sweet.

JLJ, you might want to read Gloria Steinem's "I was a playboy bunny."

In fact, all of these students who people keep bringing up should read the extended version of it, to hear about the damage working in the sex industry does to your job prospects in other professions. This is particularly an issue now due to facebook, youtube, amateur porn sites and so on. A career in the sex industry might not be very easy to cover up when you want to get another career after university.