to find some modern aspects of feminism patronising to women?

[glitterkitten]

I say "modern aspects" as i am more than aware that historical feminist activism has led to my being able to work in a professional job, has given me choices, has improved the general quality of life for women since etc etc.

An example of what i find patronising to the extreme is the recent protest by feminist groups at the opening of the Playboy Club in London.

wild haired, wild eyed women waved placards and protesting about how playboy exploit women, how evil men were manipulating women and that essentially, women who worked within such industries needed to be saved.

how can these women think that they need to save other women, who are simply exercising their right to make independent choice regarding how they make a living?

these women will deny / ignore the fact that some women working in such an industry (in all its guises) CHOOSE to earn a living that way. they earn a good wage, shock horror, they may even ENJOY it!

i find it so patronising. Intensely.

as i said above, i work in a professional career. i have no issues with strip clubs, lap dancing bars, playboy etc. i have accompanied my husband to such clubs on occasion. those women if anything, are taking advantage of the men who sit and dribble at them. the women have the last laugh with the money they make which is undoubtedly higher than the national minimum wage. would a feminist seek to tell me i am wrong??

Getting angry at feminists challenging obvious patriarchal abuses?

Who's angry?

The OP.

betty- did it occur to you that perhaps your friend who was a lap dancer did it because it was the only option open to her that didn't require qualifications??

also, did it occur to you that she may be one of the high number of strippers who has been sexually abused as a child? many of these strippers do this because their body means nothing to them due to years of abuse. obviously this doesn't apply to all but certainly many, and it is even more the case with prostitution.

An alternative explanation is that the moral outrage from some quarters is motivated by thinly veiled Judaeo-Christian morality. Both men and women are exploited in shit jobs everywhere but that provokes little heated debate. Throw sex into the mix and....
The OP is quite correct; you are patronising women who make choices that offend your morality.
You are no better than the religious nut who objects because it goes against his or her interpretation of some "holy text."

I just don't think you can throw everything into one pot and treat it the same.

What do you want to achieve? What sort of society do you want to live in? One where you ban things by association?

You have to judge things on their own merits. Which is why people trafficking is illegal. And why playboy isn't. In a liberal democracy I think we have to accept there are limits to how much we should interfere with the freedoms of others.

Wow some people do miss the point. Comparing feminism to a religion? You are aware that Religions are generally about men telling people how to behave and generally oppressing and belittling the position of women in society?

The sex industry is exploitative, abusive and in no way whatsoever empowers women.

Surely that's a given?

"Wow some people do miss the point."

By focussing on the throwaway comparison at the end of the post, I think you missed the point of the post you were responding to.

But society shifts its boundaries constantly. Which is why lap dancing clubs that were once licensed as clubs are now licensed more strictly in towns like mine as sexual entertainment venues.

One of the reasons for this was the well-evidenced connection between such sexual entertainment venues and harassment of women and girls walking in the immediate vicinity by male customers; an association in some instances with women and girls being coerced into working at the sexual entertainment venues; and in some cases more serious crimes.

Saying there's a progressive continuum of exploitation (beginning with 'no exploitation') and legislating into categories aren't mutually exclusive.

Like what?

A throwaway comparison?

throwing everything into one pot?
OP has gone to lapdancing clubs and stripclubs. She said so herself.

She is cool about the sex industry and therefore presumably cool about people trafficking. So I think it's worth bringing it into the general argument.

The Playboy club is going to end up serving as the flagship of the industry that has massively increased trafficking in women. I am sure they will do their best to keep it all squeaky clean wrt the workers in this particular club not being trafficked (though doubt they will do the same re drugs and the exploitation of women with mental health problems and histories of abuse) but the impact overall is likely to be more women being trafficked as the industry increases in scale.

Dittany,

You might want to consider the possibility that many women who do this out of choice are actually more self aware than you and that you and others shouldn't presume to know better as to what is in their interests or the interests of women in general.

Even if there are such women who choose to strip for a living it doesn't alter the fact that the sex industry is totally unequal, with female (and male) bodies being sold for money, and people having to submit to a stranger who can afford to buy their services. It teaches men to objectify women, it teaches them to think of women's bodies as a commodity (without having to consider their feelings). And you CANNOT separate this "happy hooker/stripper" myth from the more sinister side of the industry such as trafficking or child prostitution.

I am not very good at expressing these things but I really cannot understand how anyone can fail to see how exploitative the sex industry is IN ALL ITS FORMS!

People are obsessed with their right to choose to do whatever they want, but it's good to bear in mind that those choices have an effect on other people and the rest of the society you live in. Sometimes it's also good to excercise some self-restraint in this "I want, I choose to" - culture, for the common good!

I'm pondering 'trafficked' as a term and wondering what it actually means in terms of women being forced to work in the sex industry. When I see the word, I assume (perhaps wrongly) that it's immigrants from other countries, perhaps entering the UK illegally and forced to sell sex in order to pay for their passage to the UK or elsewhere in the world where they cannot legitimately find work.

Does the term refer to UK citizens who enter the sex industry in the UK? If so, why? A person who is a UK citizen (or who has a work visa) can work here. Why would they go into this industry unless it was from choice? I can think of many times in my life when I have been extremely short of money; I'd flip burgers, do anything else before escorting/pole dancing/selling sex. Is it not true to say that a woman who can work here makes a choice for herself to sell herself, rather than being exploited? I have a problem with the perception of 'exploitation' because it would mean that a woman is unable to think for herself.

i feel there are people who perceive their choice to enter the sex industry, from my experience there has been roomin before hand in some cases,, in some cases this is done by other sex workers who show all the money and stuff they have etc.

i do feel that womens bodies should not be a commodity and that women who feel the only thin to offer is their looks instead of their personality and their mind, includin those who et all dressed up to attract attention every day and o out on the pull in mini skirts, instead of tryin to establish meaninful relationships, have low self esteem and confidence, althouh at the time they feel on top of the world and as if they are the most confident person they could be, because it is all fake,

if you take that same irl out of her make up, her hair cut, and her clothes etc, then she wont be as confident, her confidence is comin from external factors not internal.

anyway the point is these people perpetuate the reasonin that womens bodies are for mens pleasure, and that any one on the street has a riht to comment on a women, because they enjoy it and that is where they et there esteem from, some feel if noone notices them walkin down the street and comments then somethin is wron.

the marketin industry encouraes this, as does the whole society, other women as they talk and bitch about others looks etc are part of it.

Lying......there are articles online (Times did a huge feature back along) about teens in this country being trafficked. Didn't EE do a storyline about it?

i know i as a woman see know issue with a bunny club but other women seek to speak on mine and all womans behalf on this kind of issue.

i think the bunnys look sexy and if i had the figure i would be down their myself

CrapolaDeVille... I think that's part of the point I'm making, how can somebody able to work in the UK be trafficked at all? They have the option to work in other professions. What would they do to earn a living if the sex industry didn't exist? That's what I was asking really.