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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

up shit creek without a paddle.... Urgent help/advice needed please.

263 replies

HolyFail · 31/05/2011 15:45

Regular poster with recent namechange here....

A friend of mine was seeing this guy - a lot older than her, he is very well off and as a birthday present offered to buy her veneers (sp*)

So she went to a dental clinic, had her actual teeth filed down to pins and is wearing temp veneers until her appointment next week.

1st payment was made (cash, by him)
2nd payment is due next week before the job is complete (thousands of pounds due)

He has dumped her! And told her to sort it out herself - she is a young woman with no money - sure she works, but is not earning enough to pay for this and she has requested to pay on finance but she has a crap credit rating so has therefore been declined!

In addition to "How could you be so stupid" What can I advise her here? Does anyone have any experience in this kind of thing?

Any suggestions welcome? We've been through how stupid she has been, we just need to find a way to sort this?

OP posts:
fairydoll · 01/06/2011 19:14

Surely dentists have some code of conduct.i can't believe their professional organisation would allow a dentist to leave a patient in this state.Surely he will have to finish the treatment and then figure out a way to get money out of your friend.

Earlybird · 01/06/2011 19:44

This is a completely voluntary, cosmetic procedure. If the patient has a screwed up personal life and/or dodgy credit, it is nothing to do with a code of conduct for the dentist!

fairydoll · 01/06/2011 19:46

i would have though it was though.Because having pins for teeth is more than a cosmetic issue!

aldiwhore · 01/06/2011 19:52

Can't really add much apart from what's already been said... POOR WOMAN! And... who is the contract with? I would have thought (no legal expert, at all) that there is a contract. Though I also suspect that its the dentist's right to refuse to finish the procedures without payment and that your mate would have to sue her ex if she can prove it was a gift? Which would mean it will be a long long time before she gets that money..... if at all.

What a mess though! Is there anyway her family/friends could club together to get enough together to loan her the cash to finish the job... she'd still be left in 'debt' but at least she'd have teeth. Poor lass though, I don't see her as stupid at all, I've have accepted that marvelous 'gift' without a second thought even if I 'should' have drawn up a water tight contract first with the gift giver.

Grumpystiltskin · 01/06/2011 20:36

Fairy, dentistry is like any other business, code of conduct or not. If you went to the supermarket and only had money for half your shopping, Tesco wouldn't gift you the rest. The dentist may be sympathetic and help out but they will be under no obligation to do so if the OP's friend doesn't meet her side of the bargain.

For crowns, seriously (and I hope the other dentists on here agree) triangles are BAD and if your teeth look like that after they have been prepared, it is not ideal.
None of us have seen the "veneer" preps, I see lots of "veneered" teeth that have been prepared very very heavily just to get the nest aesthetic result possible. I wouldn't call it a veneer preparation but that is what the patient has been told. To say the OP's friend has nothing to worry about as veneer preps are minimal is unfair as without seeing the teeth, noone can comment.
Pedalleur, with due respect, to have implants you have to have a missing tooth, to say "pegs are for implants" is absolutely wrong. Infact, OP's friend may well be better off having had the first stage of implant therapy as this wouldn't result in her having her teeth drilled.

Please keep us updated OP. Very intersted to see how this pans out.

FabbyChic · 01/06/2011 20:41

My boyfriend has implants, he was seriously ill and lost his teeth, the work done for implants is huge and there is a massive risk of infection. They remove the teeth, they put in titanium bases, they fix the teeth in, they stitch either side of the newly implanted tooth, there is a risk the mouth will reject them all. Infections are rife during the first few weeks. After 3 months the bases sometimes need realigning which is pain like you wouldn't believe.

I'd never recommend implants.

FabbyChic · 01/06/2011 20:42

You have to learn to eat again, talk. Implants are not for the weak. Can take months to eat meat again, to talk without a lisp.

mathanxiety · 01/06/2011 20:57

I think if the BF was there at the time she went to the dentist, and knew she would need more work done, knew there would be more money involved, and also knew she couldn't walk around with her teeth filed even partially and not go through with the rest of the procedure (as there's a risk of cracking and infection and the dentist would have had to go over all of this and explain that there's no turning back once the initial part of the process is done) then to walk away and refuse to have any more to do with her or his financial obligation to the dentist (which means no more veneer procedures) constitutes a form of assault.

Grumpystiltskin · 01/06/2011 21:11

Not actually sure it constitutes assault (I'm 9/12 into an LLM so still getting my head around the legal definitions). It could be hard to prove that the BF intended this to happen?

Just some off topic musings.

Original poster
HolyFail · 01/06/2011 21:54

Update: (following me asking more questions)

My friend signed the consent form, which detailed the treatment and the price, she was asked to sign this form after her first treatment - she said she had had quite a few injections in her mouth so was not feeling that great, did not read the document and just signed. BF was not present on this day, however provided an envelope with cash in. (friend now has copy of document)

BF was present at initial consultation and actually said, "will you knock anything off the price if I pay cash" Therefore dentist was well aware who was paying. Dentist even said to my friend "I'll speak to the man with the money about that"

Anyway, friend went to see dentist today, completed finance forms and is awaiting a call back from dentist (tomorrow) to find out if this has been approved.

Dentist will not be doing anymore work until payment has been sorted, friend asked "what happens if I am declined" dentist replied "you need to get a parent or family member to be guarantor" (sp*) So we know dentist position, which is fair enough.

Weird thing is, dentist said "It's not like X to renege on payment, he has brought many people in to see me for treatment and has always paid bills"
Also, when friend mentioned legal proceedings and that she was reluctant to go down this road dentist replied (I cant believe I'm about to type this) "yeah because you might be shot "Shock Even his dentist knows he is a nasty piece of work!

So, we wait for the decision on finance, I think friend is too scared to take any further action against ex tbh.

She just wants her teeth fixed and to move on from this silly mistake, I do however reckon there will be more discussion tomorrow once the finance decision comes through....

OP posts:
ohmyfucksy · 01/06/2011 22:02

Blimey.

She really, really needs to see a solicitor.

TheOriginalFAB · 01/06/2011 22:05

Is he on a mission to make everyone have LA teeth?

MmeBlueberry · 01/06/2011 22:13

Fabbychic,

Implants aren't that bad. They are flush with the jawbone, with the gums stitched back together. Once they are integrated, the gum is opened back up and posts fitted into the implant. Porcelain crowns are then fitted onto the implants.

The procedure should not be painful beyond normal analgesics. It is common to have implants alongside orthodontic treatment, and this can make talking difficult at first.

ohmyfucksy · 01/06/2011 22:15

Implants are quite a big deal though. DH had one because he smashed his two front teeth out playing rugby. First he had to let the holes from them being knocked out heal. That was 2 months. Then he had to have dentures there for 2 months, before the implants themselves were finally fitted. Cost 4k as well.

thebestisyettocome · 01/06/2011 22:16

Haven't read all thread but I would suggest she contacts university dental schools, explains the situation and asks if she can volunteer to act as a model for student dentists. They may be able to help.

Jaspants · 01/06/2011 22:18

Holyfail you are a lovely supportive friend, in spite of her refusal to listen to your advice.

MmeBlueberry · 01/06/2011 22:21

Agree, Holyfail is amazing friend :)

nijinsky · 01/06/2011 22:52

Weird thing is, dentist said "It's not like X to renege on payment, he has brought many people in to see me for treatment and has always paid bills"

Now thats where it gets wierd, I agree!

Added to the other legal possibilities, now we have agency!

nijinsky · 01/06/2011 23:00

Spot the typo

jasper · 01/06/2011 23:31

completely agree with Grumpy, especially about teeth being drilled down to triangles or points.

Thebestisyettocome, the dentist will already have incurred laboratory fees( I.e an actual Bill from the lab, I am not talking about the time he has spent so far, his assistant's wages , general overheads ) far in excess of what the boyfriend has paid up front so far.

NulliusInVerba · 02/06/2011 00:04

Sounds to me like your friend has agreed to get back with him.

And in future, to behave herself like the good little toy doll she is.

If what she says about dentist conversation is infact true, you have a dodgey man on your hands.

But seeing as he effectively has her teeth in his hands, shes hardly likely to argue with him.

This will only end very, very badly.

mathanxiety · 02/06/2011 02:30

She must see a solicitor and bring her document with her. She must not agree to pay anything to the dentist and must put off the rest of the treatment until all her legal options have been exhausted.

MrGimpy · 02/06/2011 04:09

I simply cannot believe the appalling level of the legal advice which has been given here, especially from those who claim to be/be reporting the advice of solicitors.

To deal with the civil issue first: there is a contract with the dentist and the fact that she was not feeling well/did not necessarily know what she was signing is irrelevant. The basic rule: if you sign something, you are bound by it. There are a few limited exceptions, none of which apply on the facts as described. Therefore, she is bound to pay her dentist. The boyfriend is not a party to this contract, so privity of contract means that the fact he has refused to pay is irrelevant to the contract between woman and dentist.

Promissory estoppel cannot be used here, because it cannot be used to create a cause of action. That is to say, promissory estoppel can be used as a defence if someone else sues you, but you cannot use it to sue someone else.

There is a contract here between the woman and her ex-boyfriend. Verbal contracts are binding in exactly the same way as written contracts, they are just harder to prove the existence of. In this case, the boyfriend promised to pay the money if she were to have veneers, she relied upon that and indeed had veneers, he is bound to pay. Straightforward unilateral contract - see Carlil v Carbolic Smoke Ball Co.

Finally, to consider the criminal issue: there is no assault here. Assault is the apprehension of immediate harm, thus it cannot apply on these facts at all. If it could be shown that the boyfriend intended to cause harm here then it would be a form of battery. There is no chance of proving that he intended to cause the harm as he obviously will not admit it.

This is the position in English law.

MrGimpy · 02/06/2011 04:35

Sorry to double post (is there no way to edit?), but I forgot to give the practical advice. The woman concerned should arrange with a solicitor to take this case on on a conditional fee basis. That is to say, she will not pay anything unless they are successful in settling/obtaining a positive judgment. This should avoid her getting screwed over again.

Original poster
HolyFail · 02/06/2011 10:02

The finance application was approved!!! Grin

Ok, so it leaves my friend with a massive bill - but this is being spread over 36 months and her new teeth will be fitted on Tuesday as originally planned.

The dentist was really nice about it actually and said "Now you don't need to go grovelling to X, or anyone else for that matter, the finance has gone through, come in on Tuesday and we'll continue the job" (then again, of course he's going to be nice - he is getting paid afterall)

I have a sneaky feeling that the dentist may have pushed for this application to go through..?? He may have felt sorry for her in the end.

As for X, contrary to my advice, my friend is not pursuing this legally, she wants him out of her life for good and I will be keeping a close eye on this.

Thank you all for your words of advice and support - I feel like I can now breathe!!!

OP posts: