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up shit creek without a paddle.... Urgent help/advice needed please.

263 replies

HolyFail · 31/05/2011 15:45

Regular poster with recent namechange here....

A friend of mine was seeing this guy - a lot older than her, he is very well off and as a birthday present offered to buy her veneers (sp*)

So she went to a dental clinic, had her actual teeth filed down to pins and is wearing temp veneers until her appointment next week.

1st payment was made (cash, by him)
2nd payment is due next week before the job is complete (thousands of pounds due)

He has dumped her! And told her to sort it out herself - she is a young woman with no money - sure she works, but is not earning enough to pay for this and she has requested to pay on finance but she has a crap credit rating so has therefore been declined!

In addition to "How could you be so stupid" What can I advise her here? Does anyone have any experience in this kind of thing?

Any suggestions welcome? We've been through how stupid she has been, we just need to find a way to sort this?

OP posts:
TheSparrow · 03/06/2011 00:00

Gonna get technical here, but it might help. Your friend has a legal case against the guy not in contract but through a related doctrine called promissory estoppel. Not much used in English law because it was messed up by a plagiaristic idiot called Denning, but basically says that once a promise has been made and acted upon, it can be enforced in law: the guy made the 1st payment, so unless he can show that he reasonably expected her to make any subsequent payments, he is liable under PE for the rest.

Leading cases are Allegheny College v National Chatauqua County Bank and de Ciccio v Schweizer. Both are New York cases from the 1920's, but both were judgements by Justice Cardozo, the most important Common Law judge of the Twentieth Century and the only US judge to have profoundly shaped English law (the modern English law of Tort is largely based on Cardozo judgements). (The buffoon called Denning wanted to be known as the English Cardozo & introduced many of his concepts into English law, but claimed them as his own, so cocked them up).

An aggressive lawyer (apparently there are some) should enjoy the case. PM me if you want more details.

MrGimpy · 03/06/2011 02:00

As previously stated, in English law promissory estoppel cannot be used to create a cause of action - it is a shield but not a sword and thus she could not use it to sue her boyfriend. There is, however, an enforceable contract in this case between her and her boyfriend. See my previous post on that point.

proudfoot · 03/06/2011 02:41

TheSparrow you are talking utter rubbish. In English law promissory estoppel is not a cause of action. It is a "shield, not a sword" as Gimpy has rightly stated! This is basic stuff... can't believe so many people are suggesting starting a case based on promissory estoppel Hmm

vmcd28 · 03/06/2011 10:07

Springdaffs, um, masons aren't gangsters, you know!

TheSparrow · 04/06/2011 00:15

MrGimpy & Proudfoot, I am not, & never have been, a practising lawyer: I'm just a Manchester mum with an interest in legal history, so would like to bow to your superior knowledge. But I do know that you are of both wrong in stating that promissory estoppel in English law is "a shield, not a sword". Please read Amalgamated Investment and Property Co Ltd -v- Texas Commerce International Bank Ltd (It's a 1982 case, so the passage of 31 years should mean that it has seeped under whichever legal rock you are using for shelter....).

This is a really neat case because Denning, (by then MR & sitting in CA, author of the English law variant of PE in High Trees House ) openly states that Promissory Estoppel can be used as a sword as well as a shield:

When the parties to a transaction proceed on the basis of an underlying assumption ? either of fact or of law ? whether due to misrepresentation or mistake makes no difference ? on which they have conducted the dealings between them ? neither of them will be allowed to go back on that assumption when it would be unfair or unjust to allow him to do so. If one of them does seek to go back on it, the courts will give the other such remedy as the equity of the case demands.

This has some kool implications for the current (teeth) case:

First, "a shield, not a sword" is out-of-date and is, anyway, no better than a summary of some well-known decided cases, and not a hard-faced legal principle; and the joy of our legal system is that it is capable of evolving.  A perfect example of this can, ironically, be found in the history of PE: the American Law Institute rewrote its "Restatement of the Law of Contract" (essentially a device for spreading "best practice" between the states, all of whom maintain their own legal system: allows Wyoming etc to keep up) in 1929 to include the use of PE as a "sword", based on the 2 NY / Cardozo cases mentioned.  

 Second, the <span class="italic">"English Country Bumpkin Solicitor"</span> (ECBS) position that you both adopt has no internal logic, whereas the original NY statement has very strong internal logic.  There are plenty of English market town solicitors who would not think of daring to stretch PE beyond the very tame limits of <span class="italic">Hightrees House</span> ; but there are also plenty of others who are quite capable of seeing that the case we are talking about (the teeth!) is a very good fit to the full definition of PE as defined by CA in 1982, supported by NY / ALI.  

The Denning / Cardozo nexus is particularly important: Denning wanted to be seen as the English Cardozo, not just as an English judge who referred to Cardozo's judgements (that role had been taken by MacMillan in 1932 in Donoghue v Stevenson, when he said that Cardozo (in MacPherson v Buick ) had "...stated the law exactly as I should aim to state it).

In Hightrees House, Denning was keen to be seen as the Cardozo-like genius who had introduced a novel concept to English law, so did not cite the cases from which he drew inspiration (the NY ones stated); even so, his original definition of PE as:

a promise was made which was intended to create legal relations and which, to the knowledge of the person making the promise, was going to be acted on by the person to whom it was made and which was in fact so acted on

offers no suggestion that this intended to be a purely defensive (shield) doctrine.

Those of you with a genuine interest in legal history should set aside a few hours to ask me about the significance to English law of Denning & Glanzer v Shepard ...

BitOfFun · 04/06/2011 00:29

Is anybody else getting a flouncey feel from some of these posts? Grin

ohmyfucksy · 04/06/2011 00:33

Hmm.... a practising solicitor or a legal history nerd: who would I rather trust..?

ShellyBoobs · 04/06/2011 01:20

Gonna get technical here, but it might help. Your friend has a legal case against the guy not in contract but through a related doctrine called promissory estoppel.

Um, that particular legality was discussed at length in the first few pages of the thread.

ShellyBoobs · 04/06/2011 01:25

Those of you with a genuine interest in legal history should set aside a few hours to ask me about the significance to English law of Denning & Glanzer v Shepard ...

Seriously?

I'm interested in law, but with all due respect it sounds a little patronising suggest someone should 'set aside a few hours' for you to explain your limited understanding of a case. Thanks all the same.

mathanxiety · 04/06/2011 02:58

OK, so don't.

HolyFail · 06/06/2011 11:40

BOF - not sure what a "flouncy feel" is so cannot answer that.

For those of you who have put in genuine time and effort into this thread then may I apologise for what I'm about to type - I've been away visiting my parents this weekend and arrived home late last night, only to find (from a reliable source) that my friend has taken the boyfriend back!!! She is not answering my calls.

Anyway, I'm not wasting any more time on this, I want to say she deserves everything she gets but that's just because I'm a tad angry, but I won't say that of course and just be about to help tidy the next shitstorm.

OP posts:
knittedbreast · 06/06/2011 11:55

part of me wants to say send your boyfriend round to break his teeth until he agrees to pay up. but that would be wrong. id settle for telling all his friends and family

mathanxiety · 06/06/2011 21:55

No-one deserves to get entangled with a man like that. They are like octopi, or some sort of spider -- please let her know you will be a shoulder to cry on if she needs one and don't be too impatient. If he is the kind of man I think he is he will be hard to break away from. They say it takes seven attempts.

I like Knitted's idea of telling everyone you both know.

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