to have had an abortion and feel ZERO shame or regret

[GetOrfMoiCase]

In AIBU because it is a popular topic. I know I am not being unreasonable.

Thread is in response to a report I heard on the news yesterday which was shamefully presented, regarding abortion access.

There is a thread on MN currently about it www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1222273-Chipping-away-at-abortion-rights-govt-appoints-Life-as-sexual-health-adviser

Apparently there is a twitter thingummy going around 'I had an abortion' for people to discuss guilt free abortions.

Just thought it would be appropriate to have a thread on here for people put a positive side of abortion.

My story: got pregnant 5 years ago. My dd was 10. I was in a relationship of 6 months duration and had recently started a new job. Condom failure. My partner and I agreed that we didn't want a baby, I booked an abortion and had it without a backward glance. No emotional fall out afterwards. No guilt.

...what allegrageller said but i was too nicey nicey to say myself

Getorf: Is it any comfort to look at the deranged bullshit the antichoicers spout and think 'These people are horrible and their lives must be pretty shit, if all they can think about is how much they hate women and want to see them controlled?' They are kind of BNP-ish really (the BNP are ever so keen on antichoice groups). It all comes from the same root source: hatred and fear of women and women's sexual autonomy.
You did a brave thing starting this thread.

"QueenMary - you are an incompetent midwife and someone who should not be in a caring profession."

Happily Getorf discrimination against people who share my opinion is not allowed under the law. If you want a midwife who will affirm and approve of all your choices then you are living in la la land. What should the NHS do? Employ thought police to make sure that we are all thinking the "right" thoughts?

"I feel very sorry indeed for any mother who comes under your dubious 'care'"

Well you wouldn't know how dubious my care is would you?
You are assuming it must be dubious because I have comitted the heinous crime of articulating a pro life viewpoint. I couldn't possibly be a competent midwife and have incorrect opinions on abortion could I?

"Midwives like you make me wish that care for pregnant women was removed from midwife led care to obstetricians and obstetric nurses."

LOL! Yes because that would be SO much better for women wouldn't it?
I know what, why don't you just get a shaman or a handy woman to deliver your baby. Make sure that she's totally cool with abortion beforehand though. Never mind if she doesn't know how to handle an obstetric emergency. what's a shoulder dystocia or a postpartum haemmorhage when you can be safe in the knowledge that she agrees with you 100%?
And that has to be the most important thing hasn't it?

to be fair to QueenMary, whatever her views she's not working with women having abortions, but women giving birth, so she's right re. the above.

OMG, Queenmary you are now comparing obstetricians to shaman and handywomen(?). I think you are more than a bit deranged.

and tbh I agree it would be a nightmare for us to lose midwife care and end up with obstetricians only. Look at what happened in the US where perinatal mortality is so much higher than here (and where, incidentally, an increasingly crazed pro-life and anti-sex, anti-contraception (for poor women, bearers of unwanted babies- it's so utterly, utterly insane) lobby is gaining sway.)

I wouldn't really give a shit if my midwife believed in capital punishment for theft and wanted to revoke all equalities legislation since the 50s, if she did a decent job of delivering babies. I just wouldn't want to converse with her much.

getorf thanks for starting the thread. It has been really interesting and challenging.

I still don't agree that pro-life people are "right wing nutjobs" or out to get women in general. This is just a sweeping attack at people with different views - and IMHO proof that our liberal society is only liberal as long as you are forced to agree with everyone on certain topics. But that's a different thread. I think regardless of our views on abortion, we should all be prepared to pay more tax to give proper care to children brought up by the state, and to adopt or foster children too. Its something i'd love to do at some stage, and will do it if DH agrees. Many people are pro-life because of a religious belief. And people with a religious belief are more likely to adopt a child, to give larger than average amounts to charity, to take more than average social responsibility. Bashing "right wing nutjobs" on grounds that their beliefs are not acceptable in an open debate is just silly. You're only allowed to express your beliefs if you agree with me? No, that's not how debate works i'm afraid. We should be free to disagree but not to disrespect each other.

Getorf, i'm sorry to hear about your birth history and the difficulties it has brought you even in your 30s. I guess your philosophical point about in some ways wishing you hadn't been born answers my unasked questions. Do you think this is a common view amongst people who were born from an undesired pregnancy? The only person I know in real life who admits to being the result of an unwanted pregnancy is an older man, in his 60s, who was adopted. His viewpoint is one of basic gratitude to his mother for at least giving him a life with another family rather than aborting him which whas her other option (albeit a much more difficult option in those days). But you seem to be expressing the opposite opinion - that your life has been so damaged by your birth circumstances that you'd rather the whole life hadn't happened at all?

I think you are very brave for opening the discussion on these difficult topics. There should be more open debate about these topics, there can be no informed choice without information.

"QueenMary, if you're a midwife then you'll know that a foetus is a foetus, not a baby. It's a baby - a seperate entity- when it's born, and there is not a hard cut off point for survival as a seperate entity which is what makes the decision harder for some people. "

Thanks for the attempt to teach me something newfashioned mum but I hope I don't offend when I say that it's obvious that you are not competent to be giving lessons about this.
"Fetus" is simply the latin for "baby".
It means the same thing. The medical world uses a lot of latin words like that.

As a real life honest to goodness midwife, I can assure you that the fetus absolutely is a baby.
I think you might actually be surprised to hear a midwife, on palpating your uterus, refer to your little "fetus".
We call it a baby, because that is what it is.

"I had a medical abortion at 6 weeks, the bundle of cells I lost was too small to even identify as a foetus. It had the potential to become a baby, but I didn't give it the chance to."

I'm very sorry to hear this. But the fact is that a 6 week fetus is a "bundle of cells" with arms, legs,a heart beat, eyes and brainwaves.
It is most certainly identifiable as a fetus.

Attaching a fear and loathing of pro-life beliefs to their connections with right wing politics is by no means silly. I study this area as a medical law researcher and the connections are more than clear. Yes, we should all be prepared to pay more tax for children to be brought up by the state. But when it comes to the tax rise, we will not vote for it. And there is a distinct connection between pro-life beliefs and social/market conservatism. I've never met a pro-life socialist, (although I hear Pier Paolo Pasolini was one....) though I have met lefties who were uncomfortable with abortion for themselves.

Heartily disliking someone's ethical and political beliefs is hardly closing down debate. It is the opposite. I have debated for years with pro-lifers precisely because I disagree with them and find their beliefs appalling. This does not mean I do not think that they have the right to express them.

In the US pro life beliefs are directly connected to beliefs in abstinence education (which does not work), restriction of state-funded sexual health and contraceptive services.

I would higly dispute your assertion that religious people are more likely to adopt, and give more to charity etc. Where are you getting these statistics. I'd say it was lefties and bleeding heart socialists who are more likely to do such things, in my experience...we can all provide anecdotal support for groups we like.

Oh, I take back what I said queenmary. Of course I cannot judge if you are a good midwife. You may well have been the no-nonsense 'come on, girl' midwife who made my labour so wonderful.

There was another thread months ago about the medicalisation of labour being a good thing as opposed to the 'woo the body is perfectly designed for childbirth' viewpoint which causes so much anguish to women who desire pain relief in labour, so my comments about that were borne of my opinions on that thread and are not appropriate here.

In any case I apologise for casting aspersions on your midwifery skills. We are never going to agree on abortion views but I was wrong to say what I did.

Still think you are being inflammatory mind you, but what i said was inappropriate.

Yabu to brag about it

No she isn't! You say that like it is something (the termination) she should be ashamed of!

"OMG, Queenmary you are now comparing obstetricians to shaman and handywomen(?). I think you are more than a bit deranged."

dionediabolist
Do keep up.
The poster I was responding to was so concerned that she shouldn't have a pro life midwife that she'd prefer an obstetrician or an obstetric nurse just in case.
Of course the irony is that there could be no guarantee that they were not also heinously pro life. but also, just wow, that her midwifes private opinions could be so important as that.

I said nothing about opinions Queenmary, after all who is to say that the Shaman or Handywoman didn't have similar ones. I was just so that a midwife would compare someone requesting an obstrician with a someone requesting a shaman. That's what you did.

re religious people being more charitable, the link is because a religious person is more likely to believe it is their duty to do so, and to act on a conviction that they should give time and money to charity because they believe their actions are witnessed by God.

From Religious Faith and Charitable Giving by Arthur C. Brooks. www.hoover.org/publications/policy-review/article/6577

"The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions."

"Note that neither political ideology nor income is responsible for much of the charitable differences between secular and religious people. For example, religious liberals are 19 points more likely than secular liberals to give to charity, while religious conservatives are 28 points more likely than secular conservatives to do so. In other words, religious conservatives (who give and volunteer at rates of 91 percent and 67 percent) appear to differ from secular liberals (who give and volunteer at rates of 72 percent and 52 percent) more due to religion than to politics."

The link between regular active participation in a faith activity and increased rates of charitable giving are well accepted.

At 6 weeks the baby is an embryo not a foetus. But you know that Mary, being a midwife and all...

Them medics and their pesky latin terminology.

OK Dione I did then. Enjoy being shocked and amazed

Thank you getorf
FWIW you don't know me (obviously) but I have always advocated very strongly for the women I look after, I have fought tooth and nail for them to have the labour they want ( within the usual limits of safety) whether it's a home, in the pool, a VBAC . I don't think any of them have a clue what I think about abortion and it's never come up.
I believe abortion is wrong, but I don't think twice about a womans history of abortion. It simply doesn't even enter my head.

I wouldn't bet on it Suzi, she doesn't even seem to know the difference between an obstetrician and a handywoman.

"At 6 weeks the baby is an embryo not a foetus. But you know that Mary, being a midwife and all..."

Right suzikettles
I was using the language of the poster because she was attempting to draw a distinction between the term "fetus" and the term "baby".
Let me correct myself, a six week conceptus has arms, legs, eyes, brain waves, finger buds. Not exactly an unrecognisable bundle of cells.

Here an anaesthetists account of seeing an eight week fetus still alive in the sac during an operation for ectopic pregnancy

?Eleven years ago, while giving an anesthetic for a ruptured ectopic pregnancy (at eight weeks? gestation), I was handed what I believe was the smallest living human ever seen.
The embryonic sac was intact and transparent. Within the sac was a tiny human male swimming extremely vigorously in the amniotic fluid, while attached to the wall by the umbilical cord. This tiny human was perfectly developed, with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes. It was almost transparent, as regards the skin, and the delicate arteries and veins were prominent to the ends of the fingers. ?The baby was extremely alive and swam about the sac approximately one time per second, with a natural swimmer?s stroke.

This tiny human did not look at all like the photos and drawings and models of ?embryos? which I had seen, nor did it look like a few embryos I have been able to observe since then, obviously because this one was alive! ?When the sac was opened, the tiny human immediately lost his life and took on the appearance of what is accepted as the  appearance of an embryo at this stage of life (with blunt extremities etc.).? Statement by Paul E. Rockwell, M.D., anesthesiologist

MichaelaS: I agree with you about adoption and foster care - we should, as a society, do more for these vulnerable children.

Positive adoption as a cure-all for a pregnant woman who doesn't want a child, though, isn't as clean-cut as some might wish. You may find this article about the experiences of a woman who gave her baby up for adoption interesting - I read it when it came out and haven't been able to forget it.

That should read positing adoption not positive adoption - been a long day, sorry about that.

Or that brain waves haven't been recorded until 10 weeks gestation.

Paul E Rockwell, MD.

I don't think there can be a positive side of abortion

The positive said to mine was that I didn't feel the need to crash my car in to something hard to end my torment!!

Really, are we not allowed to feel relieved? That we went through something that some find traumatic & we found relief! Not only are we poured scorn on for getting pregnant in the first place (as we were obviously careless etc) but now we have it poured all over us for not feeling guilt?

No sorry, but I felt relief. I felt no guilt. Still don't! It was something that I had to do for me, my sanity. I won't apologise for not feeling guilt because of that & because it would probably make you feel better!

OP, I wonder if you would actually feel, shame, guilt or regret about anything?lt

So because the OP doesn't feel guilty about this, she doesn't feel guilty about anything? What a huge assumption. Of course you can feel guilt for one thing & not another. I feel guilt over lots of things, just can't be guilty for making a choice that means I have a better life now than I would have had, had I had the baby.

Which is maybe why, to me, this thread is slightly odd

Why? Because we don't feel shame & regret? So this is odd. Are we not allowed to feel anything other than shame & regret?

However, just realised I would rather people didn't talk about it, when I read this thread I thought, this is going way too far

So now we should hide away. Because you don't like to talk about it. Why then, did you open the thread? The title is clear enough as to it's contents! We are going too far because we aren't ashamed to talk of our experience? You would rather we kept it a 'dirty secret" than upset those who find it confronting?

I dont know how you could get rid of a baby and not care not feel sad nothing

You see, to me it wasn't a baby. It was like something was invading my body & I had to get it out. The moment I saw that line, my world fell apart. I was 5 month post natal with my youngest, and had a double contraceptive failure. All because the hospital refused to sterilize me at dd2's section 'because it doesn't work' yet the same team, less than a yr later sterilized my friend at her youngest dds section. The difference .....she had just had her third (I only had 2 & apparently, your family can't be complete at 2). Anyway, if I had been made to carry on with the pregnancy, I wouldn't be here. It screwed me up quite a lot & I wanted to die, just for it to be over. I was horrible to live with, I hated everything & just wanted the pain to stop. I was 9weeks when I had mine. I already had stretching cramps, already had the return of the carpal tunnel I had with dd2. My pelvis still ached with SPD form dd2. I was breastfeeding & she stopped, just like that, which cause me great stress. I have since found out that my milk may have changed with pregnancy & she may have objected to that! So that is why I don't feel sad. I was pleased not to be pregnant. If that offends someone, that isn't my problem. My problem was a baby I didn't want, a pregnancy my body couldn't cope with. I dealt with it.

It is not that easy to get an abortion

Hear hear (or is it here here, I never know)

I made an appointment with one dr who I had seen several times, knew her to be caring etc. She couldn't refer me for her religious reasons. Although she was very sympathetic & apologised. (She also told me that she admired me. Because I wasn't just another woman who found herself pregnant & went ahead with the pregnancy regardless. She admired that I knew myself well enough to have the courage of my convictions & not to add to my family, 'just because') So I had to go back, over a weeks wait to get an appt with a dr who would refer me.

Then I needed to contact hospital. This was a couple of weeks before Christmas & they were booked up until January. Other clinics were too far to travel.

Then I needed to get paperwork from the hospital (had to collect it, couldn't post it due to the nature of the paperwork), get it to dr to get it signed, get it back to hospital (again, delivered, not posted - before appt, not on day of).

After 5 weeks, my day had arrived. I talked to a nurse, a dr. A counsellor. Another dr. Then had a break for lunch (theirs, not mine) then spoke to the dr again.

I woke after in tears. The nurse told me not to feel guilty, I said I didn't that I was crying because I felt relief.

I was 9 weeks. I had to wait 5 because they couldn't fit me in. I waited all over Christmas. My daughter's first. I still have no idea how I did it. But I realise now that I just coasted along...waiting for it to come. The worse 5 week wait of my life.