to think that too many people rely on the Tax Credits for their income.

[IdRatherBeInBed]

Bit of background first

My sister and her boyfriend has got back together after they split up last year. She was then claiming income support.

He has moved back in with her so her benefits have all stopped. she works 13.5 hours a week, he works over 30 hours. They earn £17k between them. Which lets be honest in this climate is not alot of money.

Shes just called Tax Credits to let them know hes moved back in and wanted to know what she would be entitled to WTC wise. Due to her HB/CTB stopping. Her rent is £500 per month, CT £100 per month. She is entitled to £4.90 per week.

I am sad for her because after all rent, ct, bills have gone out shes isnt left with anything. her food bill for the month has had to be cut to £200 per month. She has a car on finance (through my dad) which is shagging her tbh due to engine size (she got it when still with partner before splitting up and he had to get a 1.8 sport^^) her insurance with just her on it is £115p/m. - (she isnt 25 yet)

Anyway she called them last week to ask how much she could be entitled to, they told her £80 per week so she was like
"ooh we can afford this, we can afford that" so went out and spent £100 on clothes for her, him and nephew. I told her not to rely on what they have said because it could be wrong but she wouldn't listen and was saying 'it will be right'. Today she rings me bollocking me as to why she is only entitled to £4.90 per week.

FFS why bollock me - i dont work for them.

WIHBU to have said to her 'cancel your £24p/m gym membership, get rid of the car or change it if you can, stop getting things from catalogues that you cant pay for and get your arse of a boyfriend to stop spending money you don't have on shit like £5.50 magazines each week, stop getting shit for the garden you dont need, you don't need so many fucking flowery things to make a garden look nice.

Or what i come across as a complete and utter bitch.

She is one of these who says "oh i have no money" but yet has enough for new clothes or go out for a meal, or takeaway"

'why do people rely on TC as an income when he changes every year.' - because the minumum wage is too low to live on and many people need TC to pay the morgate/bills and feed their dc. Not everyone can get a well paid job.

I agree though, you sister certainly should not be buying clothes if she is recieving state help. What's wrong with potato sack ffs. Clothes, with government money , what's next free health care?

Erm....no alice. That's not the reason why. Without wanting to pull this thread off at a tangent, my main objections to TC's are:

1. Too complicated to understand & administer. No-one and that includes the staff understands the criteria.
2. Net is/was too wide. I mean seriously did El-Gordo really think families earning £60k NEED benefits?
3. When running a deficit, it's never a good idea to then introduce an expensive new benefit which can therefore only be paid by erm....borrowing money!
4. Discourages people from taking payrises/promotions and working more hours.
5. Employers have switched to offering more part time work because why pay full time positions when the state will subsidise staff's income meaning they're just as well off.

She needs to change her car to one that she an afford the insurance on, as it is on finance in your fathers name that will be tricky, what she should do is trade it in whereby they repay the finance first and get a car with only an 1100cc engine, this should reduce her insurance to around £50 a month.

She needs to reduce her outgoings, if she wastes as much as you say that should be pretty easy.

I think it's only a matter of time before there is another great shake up of the tax credits system. How are people supposed to manage then?

They have started already. NuLab had the ridiculous notion of taxing people and then handing the money back through TC. Total waste of time. The LibDems made the coalition put up the tax-free allowance this April so less tax is taken in the first place.

shirleyknot- Im also interested as I fall into this category even though I have only one child. The child tax creditS help pay my childcare which last month and moving forward is a big old bill. So yep Im sorry to say I rely on them!

oh yeah purits - that extra fiver in my wallet per week almost made me piss with excitement. The only problem being that I lost £8 per week in WTC, so I'm actually worse off.

Waiting for an answer to my question up there a bit BTW.

Without getting into individual situations, I think I would agree with the thread title that yes, people do rely on them when they should not.

Some people really do need their credits and there should always be a system in place to support their income. Some jobs are badly paid but they still need to be done and those who do them and work hard should in no way be disadvantaged because they have made that choice.

However, for those who can live on their income alone a reliance on tax credits is foolish simply because you never know when they might get taken away. I could use our family as an example here. We claim a decent amount of tax credits BUT when we bought our house almost 2 years ago we did not count our tax credits as income when looking at what mortgages we could afford, we made sure that if the benefits would be taken away we could stillpay our mortage and other outgoings. We would live hand to mouth but we would manage. I think it is asking for trouble when people in our sort of income range start to see their credits as a permantent fixture.

Hi, totally agree with Indith. In the current economy I can't see how the government can sustain giving out so much help. I also think the ops sister needs to increase her hours at work and get rid of the car and gym membership. I had to sacrifice my lovely car in February as I couldnt afford the road tax and diesel costs anymore but at the end of the day I would rather have the money for my children.

ShirleyKnot, I'm not saying there shouldn't be help for those who need it. I'm saying that tax credits as it is, is a terrible system.

I have no problems with helping those who need it. But like I said earlier, it's too complicated, costs too much to administer and too many people who I think we can all agree don't need it, get it.

What's wrong with a much simpler system targeted at those most in need? I'm a big fan of the universal credit which I think is way fairer. Perfect, no. Fairer...YES!

So.

Four years ago I was preganant and studying at university, joint top of my class (aged 33 by the way). Dh with a rather fabby little job for a national haulier at management level, children settled in school most on MN would pay for. Rented but nice house and aplns to buy similar when i'd qualified.

During that alst year 2 of my children were diagnosd with Autistic Spectrum Disorder. One i'd bet on, two? no. The more severe child regressed suddenly and lost all language.

I still finished university, did well in fact. DH changed his work hours so he worked an extra shift but with a slightly later start as ds1 was becoming very focussd with his aggressive behaviours and I was at risk. he worked more hours overall but they were slightly easier non us. He also started a little business working from home just to cover his hobby of electronics. I kept a diary for a while and I think he was doing 80 hours or so a week; he ended up ill and still kept going.

Well I took a year to raise the baby after exams (5 week old newborn sat outside waiting for a feed with dh and yet an A in finals), before planning to do PGCE or SW Conversion.

I spent that year fighting for everything, school placements, DLA, respite. Still can't have respite, ds1 is too aggressive, a risk to the respite workers. I actually get that, although it's hard on me. I started a very part time MA in Autism in the evenings on uni advice about keeping up to date.

Dh was made redundant: whole company packed up and moved to another place after merging with two other firms. Won't name where we live, let's just say Tewresa May likes to make comments about the really high unemployment rates here. So work hard to find, we'd moved away from family for me to study so no childcare in that form. SSD saying we can't use paid childcare because of aggression risk. Again understandable.

So Dh gets going with making his business bigger and realises it will require a few qualifications in his field to really be able to thrive and signs up for FT study alongside fitting in work. I continue with study, consistently geting top of my group. Two years later I'm getting A's in research modules and DH is doing well, we have a year to go.

Two months ago our last child (the one I was expecting in line one) failed his developmental checks and was referred to the clinic that diagnoses autism. We have one who isn't autistic, he has some DCD but fortunately needs nothing above an IEP.

I now have a tiny business registered but struggle to get it set up due to exhaustion, am waiting for DH to set me up a web page but he has been immersed in exams and ill- hopefully soon; am paying NI again though which feels positive. DS1 ahs a aplce at a specialist unti from September, who might be able to help him (day palce, comp level). DS3 is settled in a great SNU base. i've been helping in a school one day a week but having to cut back to a half day as never having more than 2 hours sleep in a row means I am no use to anyone after midday. DH helps enormously but is on nedication that makes him sleep without waking for a long spell each day so he doesn't wake at night; have spoken to GP and apparently is normal with this. On balance it's the only one of many side effects that affects me so hard to complain really. Does mean on school-helper days I have to be up at 5am to cover boys needs until DH wakes then run off. With ds1 settling around midnight and ds4 waking every hour or two.

So do we rely on tax credits? you bet we frigging do! As it is god knows what will happen to us in 2013 as DLA changes to PIP which loses the category for constant supervision which is what gives ds1 support, and the green paper on Sn education that asks for level of DLA / PIP to be considered. I saw the criteria for PIP today for the first time: by that autism will very, very rarely be coverd and pretty much never if child is verbal as mine are now. So presumably they will lsoe Sn education (have read green appers in depth, is indicated) and I will have to HE as no school with a brain would touch them- ds3 is adorable and kind but pretty much competely disabled and has no attentions apn or ability to self direct. With no TA he will rob a school of it's resources.

Too soon to know how ds4 will develop: asperger's I would guess, but her has extreme anxiety problems and is really quite lost in any group. He starts school nursery next eyar and it will collapse barring a miracle. We still don't qualify for help though despite having begged and truthfully told SW that at times I bar the kids into the bathroom for safety from meltdowns (I remain with melting down child obviously) and that I fullly expect to be seriosuly ahrmed eventually.

DH's business might yet fly when he ahs proper time to devote: he beleives 100%. me? I can see how cuts are eating away at his sector and am less sure. I have faith in him, the economy less so.

I have applications ready for PGCE and social work training for the eyar he graduates so he can work from home and coordinate pick ups and appoitnments; but ic an't get a comp placement becuase so manyw ant them. I am going toa sk SSD about setting up a sibling support group but alst time I tried they could not help with funding and wanted me to fund venue rent- LMAO at that!. I still get no sleep so am exhausted and frequently forgetful as a result. When DLA ends we will lose the ability to cover the rent (TCs carry a disability premium that will end with universal credit, and that helps enormously) but we will also lose the right to priority housing as DLA is the criteria for that: ds1 and ds3 could not cope in a B&B. Don;t worry says SW, we will have them fostered.

My babies. Whom I adore.

I get cuts, I get wanting assessments for DLA and all that (ATOS are dreadful though). I don't get what teh fuck I ddi wrong to deserve this dreadful luck adn then come on a supposed support board finding people criticising us for needing help running ourselves into the ground trying to tunnel out.

And is all this motivating me? honestly? i;ve goimne from up and completely motivated, sure of a prosperous future in some format, to starting toa ccept that society considers us a drain and at times thinking I should pack in trying, get a council hosue whilst we still have extra points and just give up. DH can't give up though, he's a better man than me as he ahs his illness on top.

Do I feel guilty about TC's though? Sadly yes. I feel guilty about every penny I take,, that my genetics are so shit we're costing teh state a fortune, that I can't get by on even less sleep. That I can not make my Dh or the boys healthier. And tbh, I couldn;t feel guiltier no matter what media tripe is out there about all benefits claimants being X Y or Z any more. I pretty much hate a lot of who I have ahd to become becuase I have a strong non-burden ethos: step quietly dn leave only positive impacts is my motto, instead we are a drain.

But teh boys? they are woderful, resourceful: ds1 has a talent that I (nad also school) think may well make him rich: ds3 not so but he brings joy to all. I can't imagine they should feel guilty for a second.

I agree with Indith.

People do need them to live in a lot of cases. Whilst your sister might be an exception (splashing it out, spending so much on food - at the idea that £200 a week for 2 adults and 1 child is cutting back - that's my budget for food/toiletries for a month for 2 adults and 3 children!), most families that get the credits do so because they are in dire need of them to pay for many of life's unavoidable costs - commuting costs, food, council tax bills, whatever.

The problem isn't with the mass of people claiming the credits. There are a small selection of people who are claiming them who are taking the piss, but the most part of the "top ups" are for working families. Aka the working poor!

You simply cannot afford to live on the national minimum wage these days. And often due to childcare costs people don't have the luxury of going for "well why don't you both work then, two incomes, simple".

The NMW is not a living wage.

I don't know of anywhere in the country where a parent earning NMW, working 40 hours a week, could support the other parent plus a few children. It literally cannot be done when you factor in housing costs, council tax, petrol costs/bus money - I've tallied it up in the past and there's no one I know that can afford to take a NMW job and still have even the most basic of living standards on it. That's where tax top up credits come in.

My own sister works part time (childcare issues, same old issues). He husband is an unskilled manual worker. He normally does approx 40hrs a week, more if he can get it. They're in a relatively deprived area (where I grew up) but consider themselves lucky - they rent a nice-ish home, they can afford school trips, but they're pretty much on the breadline. X comes in, and X goes out.

And that situation is one where my sister isn't getting any pension paid, there's no saving for tuition fees or to help save to buy a house. It's scrimping by at the extreme. Yet that's WITH tax credits and his fulltime wages and her part time ones!

What the fuck is my little sister meant to do when the credits disappear? Will my BIl be forced to work 70hr weeks, like he has been known to in short bursts in the past, despite it being a very physical job?

The NMW has allowed employers to avoid paying their employees a living wage for far too long. The government has, effectively, subsidised these companies' wage bills, and when they're taken away (now that they are starting to) you can see why ordinary folk are struggling. It's because the national minimum wage is povery pay.

And thus you have the situation where someone is working fulltime throughout the week yet still considered "working poor".

it's sickening, really, when youthink about it for any length of time.

I would NEVER rely on tax credits as income, they are so unreliable.

They can change by a huge amount for no reason and they often make mistakes and make you pay it back the next year. One year due to their mistake we had to pay £3k back.

My friend on 50k gets £400 pcm. Our income is far lower and we get £20pcm.

Its like the numbers are plucked out of thin air then changed for no reason. I just couldnt rely on them ever.

I would be encouraging her to work more hours and cut down her expenditure. £200 for food is not enough. If she did a 12 hour shift in a care home, say on a Saturday, she'd make another £250 a month. It's hard work but needs must. I think the changes in TC are going to make a lot of people really struggle.

The point of tax creedits is that people in work pay tax and remain employable, therefore enabling them to work throughout teh few short eyars of chidlrearing by giving top ups reduces chances of a lifetime of dependency and no pension in old age.

Working life: 50 years or so, likely to be far more long term: child rearing and needing childcare? maybe with a few kids 15.

I would never have considered myself as a low earner - truly. But as the price of everything keeps leaping up and my wage stays the same, I am really starting to find it hard.

I am fortunate in that I have savings (although I am really starting to eat into those now) and I am lucky in many ways, however, I dread to think how my contemparies are doing.

It's hard.

Exactly coco. It's so complex, it's almost a random number generator. The friends of mine who slam everything on credit, despite earning more than us get TC's yet we get nothing. Another friend of mine when swapping jobs called the TC office up three times. Each time, he spoke to a different person, each time he was given a different value as to what he would be getting in credits.

Coco - but if you don't earn enough to live on, what choice do you have but to rely on tax credits???

niceguy- yes thats our experience. We got the provisonal entitlment paperwork which was £80 per week then when the final assessment came through it was £20 per month! When you ring to ask the explantions are wooly at best.

Oakmaiden- its tricky but I couldnt rely on something so unpredictable and that seems to change on a whim. When we were weighing up wether to purchase the house we are in now or not due to added mortgage costs and did our figures in excel we didnt even bother taking TC into the equation.

We would not have gotten our mortgage if we did not count the TC. Our mortgage is or £42k, so not high at all.

It's not as simple as chosing not to rely on them because they are unreliable. Some people have no choice.

"its tricky but I couldnt rely on something so unpredictable and that seems to change on a whim"

But I think the point that a lot of posters (including myself) are making is that many households on NMW are now in the case that (simplified, based on my sister's circumstances):

6ph x 40hr week normally (so actually above NMW)
I've never asked but it must be about £720 a month after tax
So, £180 a week.

And my sister earns about 200-250 a month from her 3 night part time job dep on shifts (evenings, no childcare costs).

How is someone meant to run a house on £240 a week with 2 adults, petrol commuting costs, and 2 children? I maintain that it literally cannot be done above the poverty level, hence the need for tax credits.

it's all very well saying "i couldn't rely on something so unpredictable", but where the choice to rely on it or not has been taken away from you - those are the families I'm concerned about.

But relying on the unreliable for your mortgage.... I understand you had to but based on our own experience we would have not done it.

Exactly frgaaah. And the fact that someone said that they had disregarded their TC when applying for a mortgage makes me laugh. We're talking about people who wouldn't even be able to pull together enough money to CONSIDER buying their own property.

But no, let's feel morally superior by going on about working more hours (yep, all thos jobs out there just waiting to be filled by single parents) and cutting your cloth to fit your means.

Honestly.

Peachy - your post of 12.42 made me feel very humble. You have such a lot to deal with, I hope you are able to get the help and support you need both now, and going forwards.

I agree that NMW should be raised so that employers bear the true cost of employing people, at a living wage. Then the credits would be there for a smaller number of people who have more significant family needs.

If we hadn't then we would be relying on the unreliable to pay rent at much higher than our mortgage is.

I was surprised, in light of the current government, that the bank would even consider tax credits as part of our mortgage application.