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Original poster

Ken Clarke differentiates date rape from 'serious rape'

773 replies

NotFromConcentrate · 18/05/2011 12:07

AIBU to think it's time he went?

OP posts:
MisterDarsey · 19/05/2011 11:03

SardineQueen

In this country the age at which a child cannot give consent ie our version of statutory rape is under 13. Do you really believe that it is not a serious crime to have sex with a child under 13?

?? I think I said the exact opposite, ie that Clarke was wrong to imply that only the second definition of rape was a 'serious crime'.

Anyway thanks for putting me right about the age of consent issue

DuelingFanjo · 19/05/2011 11:06

MisterDarsey you are, like ken, misunderstanding rape.

I'll repost what Ayerobot posted in case you missed it

Over 13 and under 16 and it is consensual sex, the offence is "sexual activity with a child". If there is no consent, then it is rape. Under 13 - consent is off the legal table as in it doesn't matter whether a girl consents or not, it is still rape.

We do not have the term "statutory rape" in this country, although that is what the "Under 13" element is, in effect. And if two people in the 13-16 age bracket have consensual sex, the offence is "sexual activity with a child" and is rarely prosecuted. It's all here

carminaburana · 19/05/2011 11:07

Dontcallmepeanut;

All rape is wrong, but a man like Delroy Grant who carried out 500 sex attacks on elderly people is a lot fucking worse than an ex-boyfriend who goes too far one night, (after you invited him into your bed)
If you can't see the difference - I give up.

Mamaz0n · 19/05/2011 11:10

oh i think old Kenny boy had a point.

I think that only those that commit the most serious of murders should be in prison for life.

cos ya know, if you murder someone you know its not as bad innit.

SardineQueen · 19/05/2011 11:11

misterdarsey I think KC has really muddied the waters by talking about things as rape which are not rape, by implying that 18yo regularly get sent to prison for rape if they have consensual sex with their girlfriends (they don't, and even if they did it wouldn't be rape it would be sex with a minor).

He has caused a vast amount of confusion as to what the law is - I have just seen on the telly with everyone discussing at length how awful it is for 18 yo to go to prison for rape when they have had consensual sex with a 15yo girlfriend - when this a. isn't rape in the statutory rape sense of the word and b. just doesn't happen.

So the result of his comment is that many many people agree that 18 yo shouldn't go to prison for consensual sex with 15yo, and that that is different from rape involving non-consent, and so yes he has a point. But he doens't have a point. As this situaiton is not rape, and people don't go to prison for it.

So no-one is talking about rape in a productive way, everyone is discussing these incorrect ideas that he has put out there.

it's awful really, what he's done.

ScousyFogarty · 19/05/2011 11:12

Well, Jenny, I understand your frustration..but court cases are about deciding which side is telling the truth

In aquaintance rape cases. The man says the woman consented. The woman says"NO WAY>"

Alcohol is often a factor with both parties. And further complicates the issue for the jury.

Incidentally, have any of you been on a jury? How did you find it|?

xstitch · 19/05/2011 11:12

Its not as bad if they murder you I'm ashamed to say :(. Then at least you don't have to live with the shame, humiliation and trauma for years to come. You also don't have to deal with the knowledge of what low opinions people you previously thought to be reasonable intelligent people now think of you.

LeninGrad · 19/05/2011 11:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuelingFanjo · 19/05/2011 11:13

"All rape is wrong, but a man like Delroy Grant who carried out 500 sex attacks on elderly people is a lot fucking worse than an ex-boyfriend who goes too far one night, (after you invited him into your bed) "
really? in your eyes maybe but not in the eyes of the person who's ex has raped them. you are effectively saying that the rape by a person known to you who you have had sex with before is not that bad really? Of course it is a horrific violation for the person who has gone through it and should be taken as seriously as any other rape.

TandB · 19/05/2011 11:15

I think the proportion of HCAs prosecuting rape trials is low enough that the choice to use a barrister or an HCA can't be considered much of a factor in the conviction rate. If it is a major concern then perhaps the CPS need to be looking at the HCAs they employ as in-house advocates and improving their recruitment policy.

I am well aware, as are many of my colleagues, as to the disdain in which many members of the bar hold my particular branch of the profession and it has limited relevance to the issues being discussed on this thread. All your posts so far have been addressed to me - perhaps your views on the matter being discussed would be welcomed.

LeninGrad · 19/05/2011 11:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DontCallMePeanut · 19/05/2011 11:15

Thank you, DuellingFanjo, you beat me to it.

DuelingFanjo · 19/05/2011 11:18

and what Leningrad said too. Why is it so hard to understand that raping someone is against the law. At the very least you would expect women to understand this.

Yellowstone · 19/05/2011 11:18

MamazOn a husband who stabs his wife after a row will not get the same sentence as a serial killer of children, say.

Thankfully the law has some degree of finesse.

Yellowstone · 19/05/2011 11:19

Which is not to say I'm an advocate of domestic murder.

sieglinde · 19/05/2011 11:20

There seemed to be a further low point when he said 'critics of his plan to offer to halve the sentences of all criminals who admit their guilt were focusing on rapists to add some ?sexual excitement? to the debate.'

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1388096/Ken-Clarke-forced-say-sorry-offending-rape-victims.html#ixzz1MnBVk1yv

I think he's past it, in every way.

DontCallMePeanut · 19/05/2011 11:20

Also, a lot of women on here are not describing an ex boyfriend who goes too far after being invited back into their bed. Instead, they're describing their partners (or ex) carrying out horrific attacks on their dignity, abusing their trust, damaging their ability to trust men after that...

Yes, what Grant did was horrific, but I was referring to your original post. You'd made no reference to Grant. Funnily enough, I'm not psychic. But feel free to tell some of the posters here that the fact they knew their attackers made it less traumatising. Hmm

ScousyFogarty · 19/05/2011 11:20

when the posts get to 500, we need someone with a lawyers brain, who has time to read the lot, and summarise the opinions expressed.

No one seems to have mentioned Victoria Derbyshire, who did the interview, and her interviews often get massive publicity....Is Victoria a factor?

Yellowstone · 19/05/2011 11:21

It was the sexual excitement comment which was the most misjudged I'd have thought.

xstitch · 19/05/2011 11:22

Its normal lenin but people don't want to believe these people are rapist. It is easier for them to degrade the victim further as they are often not in a state to fight back while the rapist is feeling empowered by their actions and can put on a strong front.

They are so blinded by their desire not to face some horrible realities of the human race that they don't realise that by their actions they help rapists get away with it as juries don't convict, worse still victims feel they can't report it. Worse still they manage to extend the rapists control and humiliation over teh victim by compounding the trauma they feel and thereby increasing the rapist gratification. A rapists motive is rarely sex it is about exerting power and control over an other, to feel that they have in some way influence over their life. SO any act by a third party that increases that control helps them I just wish people could see that. I suspect I am fighting a losing battle but I am not prepared to give up.

"All rape is wrong, but a man like Delroy Grant who carried out 500 sex attacks on elderly people is a lot fucking worse than an ex-boyfriend who goes too far one night, (after you invited him into your bed) "

He is worse in the sense he has more victims however the trauma is in no way less for each individual. Rape is not a crime of numbers there are real people involved, people whose life has been destroyed yet people seem to want to make doubly sure they are destroyed.

DontCallMePeanut · 19/05/2011 11:23

This must be so hard for you to talk about. I know you've said previously about the difficulty of confiding in anyone in your town, but I was wondering if you've been able to get counselling?

Mamaz0n · 19/05/2011 11:24

As someone who was raped repeatedly, and violently by a then partner i can assure you that the experience is JUST as traumatic.

The benefit (if there can be one) of being raped by a stranger is that you can feel safe by not putting yourself in that position again. As debilitating as it is to not walk down dark alleys again, it is better than to never allow a man near you again.

To be raped by a partner you never trust a man again. It fucks with your head even more. that you somehow invited it, that it wasn't rape (not helped by the fact you have people like those on this thread and in the media telling you as much) that you just didn't tell him no loud enough.
To be pulled off the street you get universal acceptance of what happened to you. For a partner or ex partner to rape you there is some "grey area" in some peoples minds. That you are just bitter or twisted.

To live a life where you can never be close to a man again. where you never feel safe in male company.

I agree, for some to have been murdered would have been an escape from a life of no living

ScousyFogarty · 19/05/2011 11:25

Some women say raper is a power thing rather than a sex thing. I tend to think it is both.

DontCallMePeanut · 19/05/2011 11:25

*He is worse in the sense he has more victims however the trauma is in no way less for each individual. Rape is not a crime of numbers there are real people involved, people whose life has been destroyed yet people seem to want to make doubly sure they are destroyed

I was trying to find a way to put something similar to this, without causing offence, but I think you've summed it up perfectly, xstitch

Liluri · 19/05/2011 11:25

I think this is further proof that this country should not be run by a gaggle of predominently public school boys, who will never have to experience any of the difficulties, problems and hardships that the people they are supposed to represent have to.

They have no understanding of the real world, and the comments made by this man are reprehensible.

He was careless with his words because it's not an important issue to him.
Ergo, they should sack his ass.