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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Ken Clarke differentiates date rape from 'serious rape'

773 replies

NotFromConcentrate · 18/05/2011 12:07

AIBU to think it's time he went?

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 20/05/2011 20:22

To be quite honest it would be better if they did look into cases where young teenagers eg 13 are involved in sexual relationships with much older men but that doesn't happen very often. The recent cases of large rings of men grooming vulnerable young girls and plying them with drugs etc have been the exception rather than the rule, but if they are starting to take situations like that more seriously then that can only be a good thing.

TandB · 20/05/2011 20:49

The 'starting point' doesnt mean the lowest sentence. Sentencing is actually quite a complicated and formulaic exercise which I won't go into here, but the starting point is just that - what the judge should have in his mind before he performs the calculations that may take it up or down by the application of mitigating or aggravating factors, reduction for guilty plea etc. The starting point might be 5 years but someone could get 4.

Indaba · 20/05/2011 21:01

Thanks.

So as a Labour Party supporter I have to agree with KC that, as the law stands, when judges are sentencing, they can take into account the specific circumstances.

I think, having only listened to the only to the radio interviews, thats all he said (very badly, mind you, as only a blundering Tory old Tory can), but thats all he said.

By the way Mrs Bethal are you ex Hammersmith, ex Zurich, if so I'm you're mate! :)

Jasbro · 20/05/2011 21:08

NFC - if that is the actual quote the man is a half wit and should not be in the government, as he speaks of "forcible rape" - when the definition of rape is forcible intercourse.
I am incredulous that he said what he said. It is an insult to any woman - let alone someone who has gone through what you have - for this man to hold any position of authority in government. This is not just ignorance of the facts, he is either of extremely low intelligence or a misogynist.

Denning · 20/05/2011 22:08

Irrespective of what is posted on here, and what the general opinion is, very depressingly, I read a male dominated (sentencers) forum and their views are supportive of Ken Clarke and his "attempt to differentiate" rape.

I myself, think this is money driven, as I saw reported that Ken C's move behind this, was to save court time (money) and prison time (money). We seemed to have moved away somewhat alarmingly from a few years ago work was promoted in the police forces to improve the experience, if possible, for rape victims.

edam · 20/05/2011 23:51

The Times printed four letters on the subject today. Three, from men, saying 'what's all the fuss about' and one, from a woman, pointing out it's actually quite worrying if the Lord Chancellor (even if he's not called that all the time any more) doesn't understand the law.

dittany · 20/05/2011 23:52

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dittany · 20/05/2011 23:54

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xstitch · 21/05/2011 00:17

I find a lot of women say very hurtful things about rape etc. Somehow it feels worse coming from another woman. :( My XH's lawyer for example has such a reputation for her treatment of women that Women's Aid actively advise people not to use her. She has an intense hatred of single mothers no matter how they came to be single. Quite frankly I would never trust her to make an unbiased decision regarding a rape case.

What I am trying to say, not very well is you cannot automatically assume that a woman will be more understanding. I think it may have been ladythompson who said that some study suggested that female jurors were less likely to convict. I believe it is a sub-concious self protection mechanism. ie admitting that the victim who is like them in many ways was raped is like admitting that potentially they could be raped themselves. Its not malicious but sub-concious reaction.

Sad isn't it. It's definitely an uphill struggle.

dittany · 21/05/2011 00:34

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ShellyBoobs · 21/05/2011 00:39

"Men are more likely to believe and promote rape myths than women"

Is that fact or an assumption?

dittany · 21/05/2011 00:41

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celadon · 21/05/2011 00:46

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ShellyBoobs · 21/05/2011 00:58

"Four whole posts to your name Shelly. Congratulations."

What's that supposed to mean? Oh I forgot, from what a friend told me I should expect to be patronised here, so let me assume it means that as I'm not one of the 'in crowd', my opinion doesn't count.

dittany · 21/05/2011 00:59

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ShellyBoobs · 21/05/2011 01:07

Ok, well I don't know what MRA is so I can't comment on that.

My original question was a genuine one, however - yes reading it back it does look a tad sarcastic and rhetorical, so sorry.

The reason I asked is because of the prior post about how female jurors being less likely to convict. How would that fit with men being more likely to believe and promote rape myths than women?

dittany · 21/05/2011 01:19

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ShellyBoobs · 21/05/2011 01:47

Thank you for the links.

Nearly one in three men believe that most rape claims are untrue? That is shocking! I probably come across as being naive, but I would have never suspected it would be so high.
I'd like to smugly say that my OH and my brother wouldn't be in that 1/3, but that proportion is made up of someone's OHs and brothers; it's unlikely they're all single and sister-less.

Scary, very scary...

SardineQueen · 21/05/2011 08:00

The primary difficulty with rape is that the majority of it is committed by men who appear to be ordinary, even upstanding and decent members of society. Rapists have jobs, girlfriends, wives, children. They have friends who they play sports with and are kind and helpful to their work colleagues.

Women don't want to believe that men they know who are nice and normal might rape them.
Men don't want to send nice, normal men like this to prison.

And so we get the rape myths, the aim of them is to initially disbelieve the woman entirely (she's malicious, she's mad), if that doesn't work then the next best thing is to say that it was her fault and he didn't know he was doing anything wrong (they were drunk, she was flirting with him, they'd had sex in the past), if that doesn't work and it is accepted that the man raped her on purpose then the next step is to blame the woman (she was asking for it, what did she expect, she shouldn't have been walking on that street / out after dark etc). If there is absolute total proof that a man has raped, that all these people can't pretend that it was an accident, that she was asking for it, that he didnt know he was raping her, well then and only then should the man be prosecuted. But still, as he's such a nice normal bloke then he shouldn't be punished too much.

Exceptions are when people rape the very young or old, which generally generates outrage, or when the rape is accompanied by excessive violence, possibly murder. However there have been cases where even really vulnerable people (young children, women with learning disabilities) have attracted the victim blaming approach.

Incidentally I always find it interesting that outrage is reserved for women who are outside their childbearing years. For females between the ages of about 13 and 60, it seems to be "less bad". I am convinced that people also have an underlying idea that red blooded men can't help themselves. The thing I find really creepy is when people say (as they always do) that how could anyone rape a very old/young person, why would they want to do that. As if to imply that everyone understands why men want to rape females aged 13-60 and that to an extent it must be accepted that is what they will do Angry ALL rape is rape, as soon as people start to think that one victim deserved it more than another then we are into very dangerous territory. This is why the language that people like KC use is so important, and what he has said has really set things back for rape victims.

ccpccp · 21/05/2011 08:02

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LeninGrad · 21/05/2011 08:04

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SardineQueen · 21/05/2011 08:06

Seconded!

ccpccp · 21/05/2011 08:15

:)

xstitch · 21/05/2011 09:10

Personally it is women who have said the vilest things to me regarding rape and how I deserved it, asked for it. Barring my actual rapist obviously. Just my personal experience.

What sardine has just said regarding rape myths.

LeninGrad · 21/05/2011 09:19

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