To be shocked that I have to pray?

[LoopyLoopsBettyBoops]

I have recently been elected as a district councillor. The first full council meeting is coming up, and I have just discovered that we are expected to pray. Heads must be bowed.

I have little issue with people who choose to pray, but how on earth is assuming Christianity on behalf of democratically elected members of the public in any way a positive thing? It surely can't lead to true representation of the public? If I were strongly religious but from a different group, ie. Jewish or Muslim, would I still be expected to pray? Remember the Jehova's witnesses who were allowed to sit out of C of E assembly in primary school? Would they have to pray?

I'm simply shocked. Not enough to do anything about it other than a very slight bow of the head rather than full kowtow, but still shocked. AIBU?

exoticfruits your point about converting to Judaism is interesting. To be Jewish you have to be born to a Jewish mother. There was a big furore recently at JFS as they declined a place to a child because his mother was a progressive rather than Orthodox Jew, and so they didn't recognise him as Jewish. There were accusations of racism and it all got very heated. It was quite a big story - here it is in times if you're interested.

Exoticfruits why did you claim that all schools had to have a daily act of christian worship and refer me to the education act, when the education act quite clearly states that it can be changed from christian if there is good reason?

Because the Christian is the default position. To change it you have to go through the correct channels.

I have never tried to get a place in a Jewish school-just musing on how you did if you wanted to. I bet it doesn't crop up in the way non church goers want a place in a C of E school.

State schools have faith schools and non denominational schools-they do not have secular schools.

exoticfruits I am confused as to what you are talking about.

First you said that all state schools have to have a daily act of christian worship. That is simply wrong.

Now you seem to be saying that there will not be jiggery-pokery to get into Jewish schools in the same way that sometimes happens with CofE. On what do you base this comment? I can tell you for a fact there has been plenty of jiggery-pokery. Why do you think Jewish schools would be exempt from this sort of thing?

I am beginning to suspect that you don't actually know much about all of this, despite the tone of authority you adopt.

I have only one point-state schools have to have an act of daily worship-broadly Christian-unless they opt out through the right channels (which I suspect if it is like anything in schools, involves mountains of red tape and paper work). If you look at my post of 18.49 yesterday, you will see my links-setting out the facts.

I got onto Jewish schools, of which I know nothing, because you said that it was bollocks and Jewish DCs wouldn't have to follow Christian worship. I was merely pointing out that they would in a state school unless their parent's withdrew them from assembly, which is their right. However they can find a state school, admittedly few and far between, that will be Jewish faith and not Christian. If a state school found that nearly all the pupils were Jewish (which I doubt because the areas that are predominantly Jewish have their own schools set up, the Head could apply through SACRE to change the Christian nature.

I wonder exactly how many school assemblies you have sat through -and in how many schools?

exotic come on.

You made a statement that was completely wrong, and you made it in a very definite way, and now you seem to be pretending that you didn't.

There's no point directing me to posts you made after I (and others) pointed out that you were wrong, to show that actually you were right.

What you actually mean is that you said something, people pointed out that you were wrong, and directed you to resources to look at. And that having looked at them, you now understand that you were wrong.

That's better, isn't it? It's hard to argue that you never said something when it's there in black and white on the thread.

Looking again, you seem to be twisting my words. You say "I got onto Jewish schools, of which I know nothing, because you said that it was bollocks and Jewish DCs wouldn't have to follow Christian worship."

In fact I said "That's bollocks. You are telling me that the Jewish schools in my area have to spend some time every morning in a whole school assembly worshipping Jesus?" which is quite a different thing.

I would love you to point out where I made the wrong statement. I have made one -that state schools in England are required, by law, to provide an act of daily worship that is broadly Christian. stated in my link
Unless they opt out through SACRE.

I may have misunderstood you on Jewish schools-I didn't realise there were state Jewish schools, until I googled it. But of couse the very name, Jewish school, tells you that they wouldn't be following Christian worship. Where we got the wires crossed was I thought that you were talking about Jewish DCs in the average local authority school and they would do the collective worship-unless their parents opted them out, which is their right and I imagine they would.

I would still like to know how many school assemblies you have attended and in how many schools to make your statements?

exotic - while I don't know about primary schools, I doubt that many secondary schools provide a daily act of worship, whatever the law says. Many don't have a room big enough for the whole school or enough rooms big enough for each year group to meet together, so often it is left to class teachers in registration to provide whatever they like . None of the teachers I know would risk alienating their form group to attempt an act of worship (whatever their own personal beliefs). I taught in a secondary in a predominantly white, rural area and the lack of worship of any sort was not due to the presence of pupils of other faiths or an agreed SACRE opt out. Historically worship at the school had ceased and when a new head arrived and suggested that an assembly "bowed their heads for prayer" he didn't get a very successful response so didn't pursue it. From my experience (mostly of the 6th form) I would say that active Christians were in the minority and the other pupils wouldn't take kindly to it being imposed on them. If the school had wanted to fulfil its legal obligations then probably introducing worship for year 7 assemblies (who wouldn't know the school norm) and then gradually building it up through the school might have been possible, but clearly education was a priority and worship wasn't.

Here:

I said: Some schools already have switched their act of daily worship from one broadly christian in nature to that of another denomination.

You said: Have you actually read the Education Acts?!! They can't do this. It is set out exactly what percentage has to be Christian.
Of course you can make small changes -but schools can't."

It was after this that I challenged your assertion by talking about Jewish schools. Another poster also said that your stance was incorrect.

You can't just pretend that you didn't say it! It is ^^ there on the thread. After we all pointed out that you were wrong, you did some research and posted your link and talked about SACRE. You can't pretend that was what you did or said in the first place. You did that after people had pointed out that your original post was incorrect.

I am driving this point because you have been so definite in your posts, and it seems that you don't actually know much about it. How can you claim to speak knowledgeably about religion in state schools in the UK when until a few hours ago you were unaware that there were faith schools that weren't CofE?

Grimma has also detailed how her DDs secondary has opted out of the christian aspect through SACRE, her DDs secondary as far as I can tell is not a faith school. So it's a normal state secondary that has opted out of the christian aspect of the worship.

You're just wrong on this. Why not fess up, accept that you learn something every day, and move on?

Sorry-I misread it.Some have switched-that is why SACRE is there-but they have switched to a different faith-not to opting out altogether and that is in areas that are not predominantly Christian. I don't live in an area where another faith is in the majority, so no schools have switched.
I don't doubt that secondary schools manage not to.I don't think that my son's comprehensive hold collective worship on a daily basis-they don't have the room for a start.
I do however know that the majority of primary schools hold collective worship that is loosly Christian.

sorry-don't know what happened to the e-loosely

In my experience some schools follow this law more 'religiously' than others.

Some schools interpret broadly christian in nature to mean broadly christian values like respect, care, honesty etc...(nevermind that these aren't broadly or only christian values, I mean they do the assembly on the values they would anyway, have a poem, a moments silence, a bit of music etc.. and use that to tick the daily worship box). Some schools do the whole hymms and prayers thing. There is a fair amount of discretion.

Secondary schools tend to do it less because of space and time and because while you can get primary school children to sing about baby Jesus meek and mild etc.. it is fairly hard with secondary school kids.

Schools with more mixed cultural intake tend to go for the more generic version, schools with more cultural christians/white british families tend to stick with the more traditional christian version.

I don't see any police vans carting off headteachers for failure to follow this law, and I don't think SACREs have the capacity to police anything. They may get a less glowing bit from Ofsted on that section of their assessment that is all.

Where the law does bite is if there is internal debate in the school - so for example if the debate is amongst the governors and head, and some of the governors wants to keep the christian worship against calls for change they can say 'the law says so', or if some parents want a change and the head doesn't the head can say 'i'm only doing what's required by law'.

Mainly it is used, in just the way that Exoticfruits is using it here as a shut-up-its-the-law move when in fact the law can be applied with a fair amount of discretion.

I would agree entirely Himalaya and there is a wide difference of interpretation-but the law is there and most Heads don't want a battle-they just 'go with the flow'.

Is this 'daily worship' a recent addition to school's legal requirements?
In the mid 1980s we definitely didn't have prayers, let alone 'hymn practice' at Secondary School assembly.
IIRC we only had an assembly once or twice a week anyway (each year group had it's own assemblies) so there wasn't a 'daily' anything.

If we'd had to have a daily anything it would've had to have been during registration and there definitely wasn't any praying then!

This was a comprehensive in a fairly monoculturally white CofE rural county btw (but it wasn't a CofE school).

No-from the year dot! Secondary schools have generally found a way of ignoring it-primary haven't. (in general)

Primary schools just aren't trying hard enough.

I've taught for 11 years in a state secondary. In that time, we've had 3 Ofsteds & an HMI inspection. We are rated 'Outstanding.'

I have NEVER attended an assembly that could remotely be described as an act of worship - & I estimate I've attended over 300 assemblies (noodly appendage, what a depressing thought! ).

Exoticfruits is correct that them's the rules. They are widely & cheerfully ignored.

I am absolutely sure that they are in secondary schools,ravenAK-judging from my DSs and their friends and relations. It isn't the case in the primary school however.
I am not defending collective worship-I think that people think that I am! I am just stating the facts. Schools might have switched from Christian-but they haven't switched to no faith.

I must have attended hundreds of assemblies, in schools too numerous to mention. I have had a big life change, but until recently I was supply teaching in Primary Schools. I lived near county borders so I taught in 3 different local authorities, in infant schools, junior schools, primary schools, church schools, community schools, small village schools with 3 classes to big town schools with 3 form entry- and they are all much of a muchness.

In general (bearing in mind there always exceptions)

Church schools will assume that all pupils are Christian, the vicar will be in once a week, they will go to church. In one I went to a full blown communion service where the teachers took communion and the pupils all went up to the altar to be blessed (I was a bit surprised having taught for 7 yrs in a church school without ever getting that).
They will have prayers for grace and prayers at the end of the day.

Even if it isn't a church school the vicar will sometimes be invited in.

Schools that are not faith schools have -in general (always exceptions)

1. A different assembly every day of the week-teachers see it as extra planning and preparation time and one of my first questions on supply was 'do I need to stay in assembly?'

1. The Head will take it one day a week-often the staff don't have to attend. That is generally a hymn,prayer, moral story, theme, chat about school issues etc.

1. One day a week is hymn practice-taken by the teacher in charge of music-everyone else gets time off unless they take turns for 'crowd control'.

4.One day is a class assembly. Parents of the class taking it may be invited in, if room. There isn't much room so parents tend to sit at the back and the class line up at the front. The content is unlikely to be religious e.g the last one I did was a play about Aliens-because it was yr4 doing playwriting in literacy. They will start with a hymn and end with a prayer.

1. There will be a good work assembly where a particular year show their best work, read out stories etc.

6 Often a day for handing out certificates, gold books etc

7 Charities or other speakers may come in and give a talk.

8 One of the visiting music teachers may give a concert with pupils, e.g all those playing violins will 'do their bit'.

9 A teacher will take a turn-usually only for key stage 1 or key stage 2-generally from a curriculum book. I have been told it is the teacher I am covering's turn and therefore I do it. It is a question of being told it is term 2 week 4 etc and is a hymn, prayer and moral story-may well be from a faith other than Christian.(but the hymn and prayer will be Christian)

10. They use a BBC recording-hymn, prayer and story.

11.They may have a class assembly where the teacher or pupils do their own.

They all do some of the above.

I went to an exercise class tonight in a primary school hall. Although a completely different area it was 'home from home'. The hymns this week were-'All things bright and beautiful' and 'Who put the colours in the rainbow'.
It isn't a faith school.

How much emphasis they put on the Christian side is down to the Head. Some (my DS's primary was one) always put 'Christians believe' in front of every statement and tell pupils that they can say amen if they want to make it a prayer-most don't.

I just wondered how many assemblies Sardines had attended.
DCs don't always give the full picture. My DSs never once mentioned a school assembly(unless they were in the Gold Book)-so I could have assumed they didn't have one- if I hadn't taught in their school and known that the vicar did about once a term. (it was not a faith school).

I'm not defending it-just stating facts.

I also have no idea what it has to do with OP!

Sorry -most schools don't make it clear-I have no idea how many 'make it their prayer'-I doubt whether they see the distinction.

I may have missed some-I am somewhat tired!

Well...I think it's relevant to the 'oh but you'd need to separate church & state & it'd be the biggest upheaval since Enery the Eighth & the sky would fall' response to whether Xtian prayers at a council meeting are entirely necessary!

As someone else said upthread, change is more often effected by the 'rules' falling quietly into line with actual practice &/or public feeling.

I think that all OP need to do is get to know people and then find out why they say them-she may find it is just habit. I don't think it is usual.