To be shocked that I have to pray?

[LoopyLoopsBettyBoops]

I have recently been elected as a district councillor. The first full council meeting is coming up, and I have just discovered that we are expected to pray. Heads must be bowed.

I have little issue with people who choose to pray, but how on earth is assuming Christianity on behalf of democratically elected members of the public in any way a positive thing? It surely can't lead to true representation of the public? If I were strongly religious but from a different group, ie. Jewish or Muslim, would I still be expected to pray? Remember the Jehova's witnesses who were allowed to sit out of C of E assembly in primary school? Would they have to pray?

I'm simply shocked. Not enough to do anything about it other than a very slight bow of the head rather than full kowtow, but still shocked. AIBU?

Neither of the state secondary schools that my dds attend have anything approaching worship in their daily assemblies. Maybe it's a case of only doing it when visitors are lurking. I wish primaries were as blase.

DS's state primary never does anything remotely approaching 'Christian worship' in assembly. The Yr 5 teacher plays his guitar and the sing along to Bob Marley songs, lyrics on the OP. Or they show class work, demonstrate dance routines, give out certificates, listen to poems, sing 'the world's greatest', have a man in who demonstrates birds of prey or exotic insects, or representatives from charities talking about their work, etc etc

Personally I think that inviting God into the heart of local governance can only be a good thing. My DH is a district councillor and I konw that if anyone objected on grounds of their religion then they would re-visit the process. but so far it has been accepted.

Various people have said "why would you care" "why make a fuss" etc.

I'm not speaking for the OP whose feelings are probably much milder than mine so this is just for those posters that feel puzzled by this.

I'm sure that most Christians will feel that even non-believers shouldn't mind their rituals because they are harmless. I can see how a Christian might see it that way. Christianity being about harvest festivals, church choirs and so on - what's not to like?

But some of us see religion as a cancer eating away at society. We see it as holding back true civilisation. A call to replace freedom and morality with superstition and hate. You don't have to agree with that, but if you want to understand the attitudes of people like myself you have to understand that some of us do see it that way.

Now think about that a moment. Can you appreciate that if that is how we see it we're going to be as happy going along with your rituals as you would be if asked to stand respectfully while someone sang the Horst Wessel Song.

Take your iPhone and use the time to indiscretely Mumsnet catch up on important Council business.

Good luck with getting it overthrown, OP. oh, and any whining Christian bucketheads on this thread - no one is stopping you talking to your imaginary friend. It's just that they have no interest in the conversation and it's completely fucking irrelevant to most people's lives, so keep it to home an the designated Primitive meeting Place eh?

"invite god into the heart of local governance" that makes me shudder

Can you not SEE how this looks to rational adults? Christianity is as weird as cannibalism to me tbh. Why on earth would I respect its rituals? I shouldn't have to. I don't pick my nose in front of you, I don't expect to have to put up with you praying over me. Simples.

That's bollocks. You are telling me that the Jewish schools in my area have to spend some time every morning in a whole school assembly worshipping Jesus?

Obviously not a faith Jewish school, but if a local authority school was made up of mainly Jews they would. Because it is the law to have collective worship people can opt their DCs out.

I know that people think I am making it up but they haven't read the relevant education acts. Muslims are one group that have problems see their advice to parents on collective worship in schools

Heads cannot just do their own thing see here
If they think that it is inappropriate e.g. lots of Jewish pupils they have to apply-I think it is a committee called SACRE.
The person who says that they have no Christian content in their school assembly probably hasn't been to many. If they want a good Ofsted they will have to show spiritual development. The Head is breaking the law.

I am not saying that I agree with it-merely that they are FACTS.

In answer to Blu-that is very common-most do similar but they will have a hymn and a prayer. Most schools have hymn practice once a week.

Our local council have replaced the praying bit with five minutes of sharing the councillor's hopes and thoughts - it's essentially a prayer in an undirected, secular guise. If it's difficult for you to stand quietly while the others pray, then leave the room for a few minutes. No one's going to kick up a fuss.

My teenagers have told me God has never been mentioned in all the years they have been at their secondary schools (14 years between them). I'm sure they are not the only schools!

What do you mean by a "faith jewish school" and how do you differentiate that from a "local authority school"?

I am interested. But the fact is that your original statement was wrong.

Loopy, its quite revealing to see how many other people stand erect - and when you consider that quite a lot of others are just headbowing out of conformity, chances are the majority would just as soon this practice was consigned to history. Good luck!

As to schools - my DDs secondary has a detailed policy on collective worship. It 'pays due regard
to statutory requirements, and has taken account of the guidance offered by the
Local Authority through its Standing Advisory Council on Religious Education
(SACRE).' Basically, it lays out why they aren't doing Christian hymn&prayer, and what they are doing instead. I don't want to link to it as obviously it has the school's name and logo all over, but here's a quote:

Daily collective worship must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian
character. The precise nature will depend on the family background, ages and
abilities of the pupils. However, if it is inappropriate for some or all of the pupils to
take part in Christian collective worship, the head teacher may apply to the local for a
determination to have this requirement lifted.
XXXX is a non-denominational school. Assemblies may broadly reflect
Christianity, other formal religions or none (their bolding)

• and here's its Definition of Collective Worship:

Worship derives from the Anglo-Saxon word meaning honour, and worship can be rendered: to deities, or to people of excellence, worthy of honour or respect, and by extension to concepts, principles and conduct which are worthy of celebration and held to be of central importance to the community which worships. Although worship is often regarded as veneration paid to a supreme being or power, worship in schools must necessarily be of a different character. (Circular1/94 p 57 Dfes) At XXXX worship is defined in the broadest sense of the word, and places especial emphasis upon the celebration and honour of achievements, ideas and values which are central to the ethos of XXXX

Our local comp pays due regard to the statutory requirement for an act of collective worship and compulsory religious education, by completely ignoring the requirements altogether. Doesn't stop it from getting outstanding across the board in it's OFSTED report. I'm sure that the head and the board of governors are completely aware that they are breaking the letter of the law, but they don't appear to give a rat's arse, and crucially neither do the parents.

What do you mean by a "faith jewish school" and how do you differentiate that from a "local authority school"?

There are faith schools and local authority schools. There are Jewish faith schools in the same way that there are C of E schools. There are not so many but obviously they are not
Christian-people choose them if they want a Jewish education-maybe you can get a place if you are not Jewish, in the same way that you can get Catholic place if not a Catholic-I have no idea.
list of schools here

Of course some schools get around it-I don't think that my DS's comprehensive was keeping to the letter of it-they seemed to manage without many assemblies.

Primary schools don't ignore it in the same way.

Exoticfruits, I think you might be taling about fee-paying faith schools. Which exist, for all faiths. Well, all the mainstream mythologies anyway, I have yet to hear of a Wiccan/Vaudon/Santeria/Satanist primary school as in actual building with actual teachers.
My DS goes to a non-faith school but there is a certain amount of crap-peddling going on, they appear to have assembly-with-Reverend-B a couple of times a week. I have already told DS more than once that Reverend B is not always right and sometimes talks rubbish. (Only in response to what DS reports that Reverend B has said BTW).

SGB - DS doesn't have to attend those assemblies if you write in. I didn't used to ~(started a big trend with lots of friends!)

SGB, there are a few non-christian state-funded faith schools - quite a few Muslim, one or two Hindu or Sikh, I think there was a Jewish one in the news a couple of months ago about its admissions policies. Its not clear whether all (or any) of exotic's list are state.

The 'free schools' may produce some more...near us, there is probably going to be a Plymouth Bretheren state school, hardly 'mainstream' .... but that's a whole other story!

Grimma: I didn't think this had started yet (the state funding of non-Christian crap-peddling schools), though I knew it had been discussed. One of the more worrying things about the 'free schools' is the possibility of majhor crap-peddling. And indeed the likes of the BNP setting up'Christian' schools.
I have always loathed Blair and his crew, and one of the main reasons has been the pandering to the superstitious, which they have always been prepared to carry to dangerous levels.

quick google - exotics list may all be state, there's quite a few Jewish compared to other non-Xtian - note this dates from 2001 - latest I could find says 7 Muslim, 36 Jewish, 2 Sikh and 1 Hindu (under construction)!

How many faith state schools are there in England?

Primary schools - 6,384

Secondary schools - 589

Of these, 4,716 are Church of England, 2,108 Roman Catholic, 32 Jewish, four Muslim, two Sikh, one Greek Orthodox and one Seventh Day Adventist. Until Labour was elected in 1997, all state faith schools were Christian or Jewish.

Exoticfruits, I think you might be taling about fee-paying faith schools. Which exist, for all faiths.

They are state. At least I did a quick google of a few and they were voluntary aided, in the same way that C of E schools are generally. It appeared that you can apply as a non Jew-you will of course get Christianity replaced with Judaism.
I expect that we don't hear of them because people are not converting to get a place, in the same way that that they start going to church to get a C of E place-and of course there are not many-as shown by Grimma.

Yes there are state schools of different faiths, there are lots of Jewish schools in my area, which is why I asked what exoticfruits meant in her differentiation between faith schools and state schools. These faith schools are wholly or mainly funded by the state and have to follow the NC and so I don't see why exoticfruits gives them a different name.

The fact is that state schools can and do have a daily act of worship that is not broadly christian in nature, by following the correct procedure to get it changed for their school.

Exoticfruits why did you claim that all schools had to have a daily act of christian worship and refer me to the education act, when the education act quite clearly states that it can be changed from christian if there is good reason?

grimma is it the plymouth brethren or exclusive brethren (breakaway branch) near you? I am just wondering if you live near me.

SGB there have been Jewish schools round here for donkeys years, certainly since I was a girl so that's 25+ years.

Just looked up JFS, it was re-established in 1817 - a bit before my time