Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be shocked that I have to pray?

172 replies

LoopyLoopsBettyBoops · 17/05/2011 09:32

I have recently been elected as a district councillor. The first full council meeting is coming up, and I have just discovered that we are expected to pray. Heads must be bowed.

I have little issue with people who choose to pray, but how on earth is assuming Christianity on behalf of democratically elected members of the public in any way a positive thing? It surely can't lead to true representation of the public? If I were strongly religious but from a different group, ie. Jewish or Muslim, would I still be expected to pray? Remember the Jehova's witnesses who were allowed to sit out of C of E assembly in primary school? Would they have to pray?

I'm simply shocked. Not enough to do anything about it other than a very slight bow of the head rather than full kowtow, but still shocked. AIBU?

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 10:41

You would need need to effect complete separation of church and state in order to stop saying prayers at council meetings Hmm

Apparently half of them have already stopped doing it and the sky hasn't fallen in.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 10:43

Not to do that Sardines-but to get any real change you would.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 10:45

wouldn't

This idea that people can only change these small things by challenging the position of the queen and entirely restructuring the country and legislature is wrong. People are saying it in order to put others off trying to effect any changes at local level.

Some schools already have switched their act of daily worship from one broadly christian in nature to that of another denomination. The queen is still there, head of state and the church, as far as I can see.

When people see something wrong they can and should challenge it, and there is evidence that things can and do change. The naysayers on this thread are simply working to stand in the way of inclusion, modernisation and progress.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 10:47

?

This thread is about saying prayers at council meetings.

Blu · 18/05/2011 11:04

ExoticFruits- you do seem to have a rather extreme view of what the fact that the queen is head of both state and church means.

It does not mean that it is the 'law of the land' that prayers must be said before a council meeting. It does not mean that the bible is our statute book for law (as the Q'uran / hadiths are used as the basis fo shariah law in Islamic states, for example). It is currently the 'law of the land' that schools must include an act of Christian worship in the NC, but that isn't because the queen is head of the CoE and the state, it's because the government of the time made it part of the NC - and could easi;ly reverse it if they wished (and if the bishops in the Lords allowed it )

Saying prayers before council meetings is doubtless an anachronistic custom / readition left over from the days when you could take it for granted that every member present was a practising Christian. To base procedure on an assumption of shared religion nowadays is nothing but discriminatory.

Himalaya · 18/05/2011 13:15

I agree SQ and Blu,

Exoticfruits your argument that you can't challenge and change a small thing (prayers in Council meetings) because it is part of a larger thing (the role of the CoE as the state religion) and you can't change the larger thing because there is no political will just seems like a call for people to put up and shut up.

Laws don't always change because people change them from on high, often they change or are left behind because practice changes on the ground.

Most people don't care or know about prayers in schools or discrimination in school admissions, or the fact that children are expected to pray daily at school until if effects them. Then yes they are surprised and shocked. So it is easier to get people to take action on local, specific issues than on concepts like disestablishmentarianism or antidisestablishmentarianism (I always wanted to say that Grin). Thats how change happens.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 14:38

Some schools already have switched their act of daily worship from one broadly christian in nature to that of another denomination.

Have you actually read the Education Acts?!! They can't do this. It is set out exactly what percentage has to be Christian.
Of course you can make small changes -but schools can't.

However as OP is new she can hardly go in and make them change it. I have moved house and joined a few things-I would prefer it to be different but I can hardly say-'it was better where I lived before!' I will bide my time, get to know people and then say 'have you thought of doing.....?

The must do it because the majority want it. DH was a parish counsellor-they didn't have prayers-you don't have to. If she brings it up at the first meeting they will say, 'just sit quietly or you can wait outside until they are over'. She needs to go for a while and then ask why they are said.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 14:41

Most people don't care or know about prayers in schools or discrimination in school admissions, or the fact that children are expected to pray daily at school until if effects them. Then yes they are surprised and shocked

Exactly-then they moan on MN and elsewhere-how many do anything other than moan? Very few is my guess. If people want change they get change-but not by moaning.

dixiechick1975 · 18/05/2011 14:44

They can't do it all all council meetings though.

I attended a council meeting a couple of years ago and they definitely didn't. All the local councillors present except one were muslim in any event.

QualiaQuale · 18/05/2011 14:46

some councillor you're going to be, unable or unwilling to speak up about something like this. Hmm Just be quietly shocked and bleat about it here, good start to public service, kudos.

YABU anyway for the inaccurate thread title, nobody has to pray, don't be ridiculous.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 14:53

Of course they don't do it everywhere-so it shows that particular one have chosen to do it. OP needs to get to know everyone and then query it.

breatheslowly · 18/05/2011 15:56

It doesn't show that the current councillors have chosen to do it, it shows that at some point in the past the then councillors have chosen to do it. The current councillors may not have considered it or may not know that it is not a required practice.

frantic51 · 18/05/2011 15:57

Nobody has to pray. They don't have to be Christian prayers if they do; my cousin is a Muslim and we don't have a problem praying together! OP could arrive late and miss them anyway, or she could be respectful and quiet for a couple of minutes; her choice.

What genuinely intrigues me is why people who claim it is all a lot of "hogwash" get so hot under the collar about other people's "imaginary friends"? I can't see that I would bother to get so animated about something I didn't believe in or thought didn't exist! Life's too short! Grin

breatheslowly · 18/05/2011 16:09

Praying in a civic setting to my mind undermines the group doing the praying in my mind. This is because:
The people involved are meant to be dealing with things factually and in a rational manner, not seeking help from a higher being to resolve the issues they are meeting to discuss.
They appear to be partisan, rather than appearing to represent all of their constituents and I wouldn't be confident that they will make fair and equitable decisions if they start their meetings with an affirmation of one faith.
People may be put off from becoming councillors if they see that this is part of the meetings.

breatheslowly · 18/05/2011 16:10

Probably too many "my minds" there, but hopefully you get the gist!

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 16:12

The sensible advice to OP is to go to some meetings, get to know people and then bring up the subject.

oxocube · 18/05/2011 16:14

As a Christian, I find this totally unacceptable

breatheslowly · 18/05/2011 16:21

I don't see why the OP has to get to know people - surely this time of changes to councillors would be an appropriate moment to just get on with saying something and hopefully putting a stop to it.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 16:28

As a new person I find it best to be diplomatic! Putting people's backs up from the start is counter productive. I would start on the assumption they had actually chosen it and find out the position, tactfully, later.
I am going to a meeting tonight (not council and no prayers), there is something that I would like changed -but going for the first time and telling them they are wrong isn't going to endear me to anyone! It will make me someone to avoid. I wil bring it up eventually.
It isn't vital-perhaps she could time it-my guess would be 70seconds!

breatheslowly · 18/05/2011 16:36

Or she could wait and be told "I don't see why you are bringing this up now, you seemed to be perfectly happy with it when you joined us".

Original poster
LoopyLoopsBettyBoops · 18/05/2011 16:52

OK, just a few things.

Having thought about the subject at length, read everyone's opinions and attended said meeting, I have come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is find my feet, then tackle the matter by speaking to people to get a feel for general opinion before acting. I will act if the general feeling is similar to mine, as I feel strongly that it is divisive and could put people off offering their services (although admittedly this is not a very culturally diverse area).

I cannot leave the room before prayers, as it is a very formal affair, with press and public present, and would simply be inappropriate. At the meeting I stood along with everyone else, and kept my chin up and eyes open. Approximately half of the people there, including other members, officers and the public, were doing the same thing as me, which leads me to believe that there may be some opposition to it already.

The prayer was Christian, but was about making the correct decisions etc. This, as pointed out before, may be very useful as a thought to ponder on at the beginning of a meeting, but does not need to be religious in my opinion.

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 16:56

The most sensible option LLBB- tact and diplomacy get you further. I use them in RL, much more effective than MN where I plunge in with opinions and upset people. Grin

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 17:28

"Some schools already have switched their act of daily worship from one broadly christian in nature to that of another denomination.

Have you actually read the Education Acts?!! They can't do this. It is set out exactly what percentage has to be Christian.
Of course you can make small changes -but schools can't."

That's bollocks. You are telling me that the Jewish schools in my area have to spend some time every morning in a whole school assembly worshipping Jesus?

If that is really the case (and I don't believe that it is) then that is simply outrageous.

EdithWeston · 18/05/2011 17:36

SQ: they can do that, and there is a committee (whose name temporarily eludes me) which approves changes. Those schools are still obliged to have an act of collective worship.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 17:38

Thank you Edith Smile