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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be shocked that I have to pray?

172 replies

LoopyLoopsBettyBoops · 17/05/2011 09:32

I have recently been elected as a district councillor. The first full council meeting is coming up, and I have just discovered that we are expected to pray. Heads must be bowed.

I have little issue with people who choose to pray, but how on earth is assuming Christianity on behalf of democratically elected members of the public in any way a positive thing? It surely can't lead to true representation of the public? If I were strongly religious but from a different group, ie. Jewish or Muslim, would I still be expected to pray? Remember the Jehova's witnesses who were allowed to sit out of C of E assembly in primary school? Would they have to pray?

I'm simply shocked. Not enough to do anything about it other than a very slight bow of the head rather than full kowtow, but still shocked. AIBU?

OP posts:
DorisDoesntDance · 17/05/2011 22:19
exoticfruits · 17/05/2011 22:24

I certainly wouldn't vote SpringChicken onto anything-too narrow minded and intolerant. It is always the same -SGB has made up her mind and she is RIGHT, everyone who dares differ is stupid and ridiculed. Anyone on a council needs to represent everyone and respect other views.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/05/2011 22:33

So how does saying prayers include/represent everyone?

ClipArt · 17/05/2011 22:34

It was going so well until you began the bigoted mocking and name-calling, SCGB.

"numpties"
"has to talk to your imaginary friend every day"
"equally daft mates"
"silly little hobby"

exoticfruits · 17/05/2011 22:38

I wasn't talking about prayers. I find SGB bigotted-she is entitled to her beliefs-I wouldn't ridicule them.

If you are one of these numpties who actually has to talk to your imaginary friend every day you can do it at home. Or indeed in one of those specially designated places where you get to hang out with your equally daft mates and indulge in your silly little hobby all together

I rest my case! No respect-no toleration. Disagree with SGB view of the world and you are a numpty. Not a candidate for public office. If you don't like it go through democratic channels.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 17/05/2011 22:44

Exoticfruits, you're quite right, I have no respect for religion, and my tolerance for it is a matter of not minding people engaging in it, either in their own homes or in the buildings dedicated to it, just not on my time/money or anyone else's. When an organisation is supposed to include and be accessible to everyone then it is inappropriate and discriminatory for the organisation to privilege one brand of crap-peddling by incorporating it into official business.

DorisDoesntDance · 17/05/2011 22:44

is it not more bigoted to expect or presume that all councillors are christian and should be saying prayers?

breatheslowly - it might not be compulsory to attend prayers in the house of lords or commons... but the reading of them is required and occurs daily.

breatheslowly · 17/05/2011 23:03

Doris - I don't agree with prayers in the Lords or Commons either, but at least they can avoid them by arriving after they have started. I think this should be an option for the OP. Though I would prefer that the councillors pray privately at home, in a place of worship or informally before their meetings if they want to do it together as a sub-group.

Rhinestone · 18/05/2011 00:42

SCGB - what an unpleasant post. I'm one of those 'numpties' with an 'imaginary friend' and I said to the OP that she shouldn't pray if she doesn't believe and I very much doubt anyone will say anything.

I would rather non-believers were honest about their lack of faith. Am getting rather fed up with people who suddenly discover religion when they want to get married in a church / get their kids christened / realise that the best school in a local area is a faith school.

But why shouldn't people pray if they want? Or are we against free speech here?

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 08:00

No one is forcing anyone to pray. She doesn't even have to bow her head, just remain silent and respectful of others.
It is a good reason for everyone studying history- and then they would understand why we do the things that we do. SGB jumping up and down, ranting about numpties, involving the papers, getting lawyers (all suggested in her first post) would get nowhere-lawyers work with laws and statutes, not irrational rants. I think that it will change eventually, but it will be through democratic channels and will involve the church being separate from the state.Jpoining the secular society would be the first step (a society that you don't hear ranting everywhere).
I don't see the harm in the prayers-I would imagine that it is just the hope that decisions will be made to the best of their ability, in the interests of all. A good idea for anyone to reflect on first-even if they are not offering them up to a higher being.
The reason that I wouldn't vote for SGB is that I would think her incapable of acting in the interests of Muslims, Christians,Jews etc because it is all classed as 'daft'. Anyone in public office needs to respect those with different beliefs and understand that people have the same information and it is their right to come up with different conclusions from SGB. I don't think that her level of hatred is healthy-certainly not something to be held by someone in public ofice.

breatheslowly · 18/05/2011 08:17

exotic - why should the OP waste her time sitting through them? I have no issue with other people praying, but I don't want to waste my time listening to it when I could be on MN doing something useful.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 08:25

"Anyone in public office needs to respect those with different beliefs"

How exactly is that met by having a compulsory act of christian worship at the commencement of a council meeting, of all things?

It's ridiculous. Religion has no formal place in this situation. I agree with SGB and others, that if people want to pray that their meeting goes well (doesn't say much about their confidence in their abilities TBH) then they should do so privately, and not as a part of the formal council process.

I am genuinely flabbergasted that this is going on. We are supposed to have an open, tolerant and mixed society. What goes on in the schools, and now this, shows that up as a total lie, basically.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 08:30

exotic - why should the OP waste her time sitting through them

Less than 2 minutes-is she so stressed she can't waste 2 minutes!!

It isn't a lie SardineQueen-know your history, read the education acts-it is all there set out in black and white.
They don't read them in all councils anyway. The secular society want to know which ones and change it. Join them.
(I don't see anything more tolerant then 'love your neighbour as yourself'.)

breatheslowly · 18/05/2011 08:42

The length of time isn't the point. The point is that it is imposed on her and is a waste of her time. But on the other hand, if you add up the time spent by all of the councillors, it begins to add up. And I bet the clerk is being paid from the start of the meeting.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 08:44

It's not tolerant or inclusive society if christian worship is enforced as a part of the procedure at meetings of elected officials who run things for us.

Forcing a load of people of other faiths (or none) to sit through christian prayers if they want to be involved in running the community is simply wrong. It is offputting at best, and alienating at worst.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 08:47

You're a muslim. It's your first day as an elected official. You turn up excited about talking about recycling and potholes and the next minute everyone is worshipping Jesus.

How can anyone see that as anything other than wildly incongruous?

Amateurish · 18/05/2011 08:49

YANBU it's a fucking disgrace

echt · 18/05/2011 08:50

Fail to see why anyone should respect another's beliefs, of any kind.

Respect their right to hold barmy cack beliefs, yes.

In this case the OP is being imposed on.

And while I'm here, I agree with SCGB.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 09:34

A Muslim has to realise they are in a Christian country. If you went to a Muslim country you would have to fit in.When in Rome......
UK is a Christian country-fact. If you don't like it go for democratic change. Just don't pretend that culturally and historically we are not Christian. The Prime Minister chooses bishops-bishops sit in H of L-how more intertwined can you get?!

OhYouBadBadKitten · 18/05/2011 09:36

Did you not go to Council meetings before you were elected?

OhYouBadBadKitten · 18/05/2011 09:38

should have added - this happens at our District Council full meetings but not at sub committee meetings.

SardineQueen · 18/05/2011 09:46

exoticfruits I find your attitude difficult to understand and wholly intolerant.

Whether you like it or not, Britain prides itself on being an inclusive society which strives to be accepting and tolerant of all sorts of different different things, including faiths.

Supporting wholly outdated acts within councils, which serve to alienate people in the society they are supposed to be representing, is reactionary and frankly depressing.

It's like the daily act of christian worship in schools. People say that if others don't like it they can exclude their children, effectively mark them as different, make them miss out on the whole-school gathering every day. Like it or lump it.

These rules were fixed in days when the church was much more dominant in society, and more people went. Also when there were not so many people of different nationalities and faiths living here.

To say like it or lump it to the thousands and thousands of people who thought that they were living in an integrated, tolerant society is deeply unpleasant.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 10:12

At no point did I say it was a good thing Sardines. I was just explaining that it shouldn't be a surprise! If you don't like it, actively campaign for change through democratic channels-don't just rant and moan and think that it can be changed without disestablishmentarianism.

EdithWeston · 18/05/2011 10:22

It is like it or lump it - the law of the land establishes the Christian Church in a privileged position. That is the current fact.

As noted before, when there was this thread recently on the disestablishment of the church, there wasn't much response. There doesn't seem to be enough demand for change for any Party to take this up. Disestablishment wouldn't in itself alter the position of religion in schools (faith schools continue to exist, even where there is no Established Church), though it might be a handy start point for getting rid of the collective act of worship.

But there's no getting away from the legal position that England is a Christian country in law.

exoticfruits · 18/05/2011 10:38

Exactly Edith-that is my only point.
People don't tend to realise that UK is Christian in their daily life and then suddenly -boom-they find out and don't like it!
It has always been there-nothing has changed-an important reason for learning history.

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