to not care about immigration?

[StuckinTheMiddlewithYou]

So many people seem to have a huge problem with it and I really don't understand why.

The crazy thing is, I live in a hugely multicultural area and most of the people I know who have a problem with this, live in predominantly white suburbs.

We have a problem here with alcoholic homeless people fighting and screaming in the streets - none of them are immigrants.

Thistledew Wed 18-May-11 00:00:59
Luna - what you can do, on an individual level, without the slightest risk to your family's standard of living, is to take an active part in reminding every person you meet that 'foreigners' are people too, and are just as deserving of basic human rights such as food, clean water, healthcare and education as you are. And that we, as human beings, have a duty to make sure they achieve this.

You can also make sure you buy only fair trade produce, and whereever possible make sure that your actions promote a fairer life for all human beings.

This is the minimum that anyone can do.

What you shuouldn't be doing is buying fairtrade products as they have a massive margin for the supermarkets which gives them more buying power which enables them to exploit more sweatshops and drive down producer's factory gate prices in thirld world countries.

"What on earth do you think a stamp on a visa which says 'no recourse to public funds' means ccp?"

I think it means 'be good and please dont scam our leaky welfare system'.

'...and dont eat the swans'

chibi - To me there's a few different things going on here.

1. the resources thing. The UK is a relatively small island and already supports a pretty high population density. We import a worryingly high percentage of our food and other resources already. Regardless of racial or cultural issues there's a case for a serious conversation about how and to what extent we should try and control the population.

2. the assimilation/multiculturalism thing. I've lived in several countries and in each case learned the language, fitted in with the way people did things locally and generally did my best to assimilate. I feel it's not unreasonable to expect the same in the UK. I feel uncomfortable when proponents of multiculturalism claim that expecting/wanting migrants to assimilate equates to cultural colonialism or even racism.

3. the empire thing. I made a pretty flippant remark back there but I do think there's a grain of truth in it. I feel that the elephant in the middle-class liberal sitting room is empire. It's nigh-on impossible to talk about the British empire, unless it's to say how dreadful it was, how terrible we all feel and so on. And yet if you read between the lines of the Daily Mail, the Sun and plenty of other popular places it's not hard to detect an undertone of regret that Britain isn't an empire any more.

Meanwhile, lots of white British middle and upper-middle-class people (essentially the chattering classes, ie political class) have ancestors who were major players in the British empire. Lots of them are also liberal and left-leaning. What you get then is a paradox: someone whose culture, privileges, status, possibly family heirlooms and money are inseparable from colonialism, but whose liberal principles find the idea of colonialism intolerable. Guilt city! So the result is a vague feeling that by being uber-tolerant to other cultures some kind of amends migh be made for exploiting them under the British empire. Throw into that mix the patrician 'my way is right' attitude that upper-middle-class people are generally born with and you get a desire not only to do that yourself, but to make everyone else in the country do that as well - even if in fact others take a very different view of the past, the empire, current circumstances and so on.

chibi

Conditions on your entry to the UK stating no recourse to public funds means you cannot use the health service, state schools, benefits etc. It will also state how long you can stay in the UK.

However there is also a sign on every road in the UK stating you must not drive faster than x miles an hours, rules in schools about taking kids out in term time. Rules that prohibit drinking and smoking under a certain age.

You might obey everyone of them - that does not mean that every single other person in the country does, in fact I would go so far as to say the majority of people do not think it is unreasonable to buy their so a pint 3 days before his eighteenth birthday, allow their child to eat grapes and not pay for them in the supermarket, take their children out of school a couple of days early because otherwise they would not be able to have their mandatory holiday abroad.

There are rules that most people follow (thou shalt not rape, murder, bash old ladies over the head for their pensions) and those that are widely ignored (see above). Immigration stamps in passports fall in the latter category I'm afraid.

I did not get this info from the Daily Mail, or from watching UK Border Force on TV. I know from my own experience this is true.

'Alpine Pony' said on page 17 "...In fact, show your average British-lady-of-a-certain-age a well-turned out African-American and she'll start foaming at the gash mouth....."

I truly don't uderstand that. :(

Maybe she's talking about Barack Obama?

That is really bracing then, because you would need a large body of fake paperwork in order to be able to claim benefits, and be able to fool any number of government people who interview claimants

There must be a vast underground network of forgers ready to meet this demand, since apparently most immigrants are at it

We have a fairly generous benefit system in my home country, but i don't think i have ever hteard of this kind of mega criminal network there

How funny

Given that both nations accept people from the same places (admittedly, we take more people from africa, s america and asia than from europe) and from similar skill levels and baackgrounds, why immigrants to the uk turn to crime where they don't really seem to in ky home country

It seems v strangr, no wonder you are concerned

I missed that post

Foaming at the gash is a pretty grim expression

This is such a complex process. I've been studying migration over the past 5 years and being an immigrant myself my views can be a bit bias.

Generally, immigrants have a negative connection on how they put pressure on the hosting society. In fact these pressures are real, but on the other hand immigrants contribute a lot to the society. Most immigrant fill the gap in the labour market of the so called 3D Jobs "dirty, dangerous, and difficult", have low waves, work long hours and are more exposed to a fragile working market, being many times explored. However, there is also a small percentage of high educated immigrants, which do not have good working condition in their home countries and are forced to migrate to use their skills. In a sense, the country of origin suffers a "brain drainage" and the host society received people with high skills and, and did not spend any money in their education. Also, as mentioned by some in this thread, British citizens are also migrating to other countries, being, part of a phenomenon called International Retired migration, where older people by housed in sunny places and live there most of the year

The pressures in the population.... well... population all over Europe is getting older, therefore migration is welcomed. In Scotland, for instance, population grew due to migration and the new births, otherwise the balance would have been negative.

Different countries have different ways to deal with the arrival of immigrants, and to be honest I think the UK has done a very good job, in comparison, for instance with Germany and France. Very broadly and superficially, In France if you are in immigrant you are expected be behave like a French, embrace their culture and values and live your own cultural identity aside (see the example of the veil). On the contrary, in Germany immigrants are seen as immigrants and therefore live aside of the German culture. These two different position have lead to the same: exclusion! it is true that multiculturalism has it problems, but at least it recognises individuality and tries to incorporate immigrant in the host society.

As an immigrant in the UK, I must say I've been having a very good experience. I also make an effort to live outside my "cultural bubble" and try to be part of the community and contribute to the best of my abilities. I've learned so many good things in this country, and I'm grateful for that.

In my opinion it takes time for the immigrants communities to blend in the host country. Many may want to keep their individual culture, but what is essential to assure is that these communities are not marginalised and have the opportunity to be included. I would add that special attention should be focused on the children that are born in these country, because they will be the future generation and they should not feel segregated as previous generations.

Sorry for the long post

Pendeen? Don't you? Never mind, maybe you've quite a limited social life and experience. :)

Chibi - what kind of legal action and sentencing could sexual predators expect in your home country?

Like here, most victims of sexual assault/rape do not report their.assault to the police, the source i looked at suggested about 1 in 10. Rapists appear to be less likely to be convicted than other accused of violent crime, but where they are convicted are more likely to receive a prison sentence

I don't know what the actual sentencing guidelines are, but it is considered a serious crime.

I am not sure this is relevant, i don't think there are any countries take sexual assault seriously, just ones that are apocalyptically bad, and others which look better in comparison.

The uk which is one of the better countries with respect to prosecutions of sexual assault still only convicts in around 6% of rapes. Much like my home country, most cases never see the inside of a courtroom

AlpinePony.

I'm quite happy with my social life but I will admit to not having much 'experience' (if I understand you correctly).

I was more curious about the 'American' reference rather than the 'African' - I can guess what you mean about that and what would be the "certain age"! :)

'Conditions on your entry to the UK stating no recourse to public funds means you cannot use the health service, state schools, benefits etc. It will also state how long you can stay in the UK.'

The health service and schools are not considered public funds.

This outlines what public funds are.

Also keep in mind that people from many EU countries can claim public funds more readily than a non-EU/EEA national (excepting some Commonwealth nationals).

Chibi, I work in Social Services and see what people are getting financially and where they are living. Believe me, alot of immigrants get housing and benefits. Interestingly I have worked in areas with low immigration and very high immigration and often there is sufficient council accomodation in low immigration areas but woefully insufficient accomodation in high immigration areas. I find it so frustrating really that the facts are often really skewed and it really depends very much on specific areas and therefore overall a politican can say we don't have a problem (based on countrywide stats) but in some areas we do very much have a problem and it is very unfair on the people who have lived for years (whereever they are from) in an area to have a big influx or repeated influxes of new migrants in relatively short spaces of time (eg. the last labour government era) who place huge pressures on health, social care and immigration to the detriment of other service users in the community. That is unfair and unacceptable and needs to be addressed. Unless a person works within these fairly complex government frontline services they will be totally unaware of the situation in that particular area. But that doesn't mean these issues don't exist.

expat in Scotland said:

"'Conditions on your entry to the UK stating no recourse to public funds means you cannot use the health service, state schools, benefits etc. It will also state how long you can stay in the UK.'

The health service and schools are not considered public funds."

I included them for simplicity, it is much more complicated and depends on the length and status of your residency. However anyone who enters as a visitor is not entitled to any health care unless it is an emergency, or to allow their children to go to stat schools. Comments earlier in the thread suggest that as schooling and the NHS are free at the point of delivery they are free to anyone regardless of their immigration status.

If you are a migrant, working or otherwise please check out exactly what it is that you are entitled to do.

Although habitual residency tests etc debar certain people from claiming benefits from the state the 1948 National Assistance Act means that councils have to proivide assistance to feed clothe and house vulnerable people (pregnant and BF mothers, U16s (and especially U5s), disabled etc) and therefore Council and Social Services in areas around Gatwick, Heathrow and Dover are required to provide for these vulnerable groups before considering the housing needs of "non-vulnerable" groups of the local residents.

This can of course result in a single person or young couple who have been on the waiting list for housing for some years being "trumped" by a newly arrived young family who claim they are destitute.

Chibi

There is a huge undreground market in fake documents and national insurance numbers, and also for EU documents so Russians can pretend to be Polish, Brazilians can "become" Portuguese, ivorians - French etc. Please do not think that I am saying you are a bad person for any reason and especially not because you are "foreign", but you are incredibly niave and unaware of how much abuse of the Immigration system there is.

Get over yourself, Take, and don't assume everyone is clueless and you need to instruct them so you didn't include some conditions for 'simplicity'.

And don't misqoute me. YOU wrote the first paragraph, not me.

I'm a non-EU/EEA immigrant myself who went through the naturalisation process, don't patronise me or any other person who uses this board.

And visitors are not immigrants. Duh.

I didn'e assume everone was clueless, nor indeed that you were, but it is clear from the 19 pages on this topic that many people do not understand the complex Immigration and Nationality rules and acts or how they link into everyday life - and why on earth should they?

I accept an immigrant is a person who goes to another counrtry with the intention to settle there, however many of the people now in the UK entered as visitors either with the intention of staying? (UKBAs own data states 4 out of 5 extended family members (i.e. not parents or children of the family member) who enter on family visit visas overstay), or something happens when they are here that makes them want to stay - meet a boyfriend, their daughter decides to go back to work and asks Mum to stay and look after her kids, they fall ill and get better healthcare here than they would at home etc.

On the local news tonight there was a feature on the London Borough of Lambeth not having enough primary school places. I think this must have some connection with immigration.

Education and healthcare are not finite resources. Why is it that immigrants are blamed, rather than the government's decision to spend money on Trident instead?

Take, you are correct. According to the UN an international immigrant is a "non-residents who enter the country with a view of establishing residence?, but over a period of one year, and more recently the European Union suggested that an immigrant is someone who ?who leave one country or region to settle in another, often in search of a better life?

And another important thing is that many people move within their own country (internal migration), and this leads to the abandonment of more remote areas and agriculture fields and puts more pressure in urban areas. Therefore. alemci those pressures in London might also be a result of other British citizens who moved to there, and not only immigrants.

Thistledew - You are correct!

Why is stating the bleeding obvious fact which is wilfully ignored by most people regarded as extreme?