to not care about immigration?

[StuckinTheMiddlewithYou]

So many people seem to have a huge problem with it and I really don't understand why.

The crazy thing is, I live in a hugely multicultural area and most of the people I know who have a problem with this, live in predominantly white suburbs.

We have a problem here with alcoholic homeless people fighting and screaming in the streets - none of them are immigrants.

Oh - and excellent post Lunabelly.

Yes ccp - at least the Tories are doing something to stop the madness -

V interesting as always to hear what people think

I have been here in the uk for nearly a decade now. I am in the process of helping my english dh to immigrate to my home country

I have had many wonderful experiences and opportunities in this country, but i am sad that the general perception of people like me is criminal scum who came with the express purpose of using all the resources, wrecking life for the locals etc etc

My home country has a very different outlook on immigration, in some ways i think it will be easier for dh to fit in- if nothing else there will be no daily newspaper articles about how the country is fucked and it's his fault

I don't think it would everr really occur to most people in my country to think of ourselves as a cupboard full of limited resources which must be defended from ravaging mobs, it is v interesting how people perceive things differently i guess

Clibi - the Labour party have admitted they 'got it wrong' over immigration ( that was nice of them wasn't it ) - we are a small country and we simply haven't got the 'space' for unlimited amounts of people - let alone resources. It was all too much too soon - but that's Labour for you, they haven't got a clue.
My philosophy on immigration (which I have stated on MN before) is the same as most people's - and the same as most countries for that matter
' nuclear scientist from Iraq - welcome my friend - toothless granny from Somalia with TB - on your bike '

We need quality not quantity

I think that were your home country to experience it to the extent (and hamfisted management of it all) that the UK has, I think then that attitudes would change. Rightly or wrongly. I know that the country that I was living in hates people even from the next village now, let alone from abroad.

About 18 years ago, I was helping a Kurdish family fill out forms in order for them to be rehoused (social housing), as my then DP's family ran a sort of immigration and asylum hostelly type thing. They had been here for ten years, had had five children, and had only learnt about 10 words. Why wouldn't you want to learn the language? I know from living abroad that life is so much easier if you do. I know that integrating and socialising with the 'hosts' on a daily basis and not just when you want something makes it so much easier and better, for everyone.

And I never said that we are things in a cupboard to be defended from ravaging mobs. What I said was that the 'cupboard' (for want of a better analogy and I cannot think of one until I've had at least 5 cups of fairtrade coffee) is at breaking point. I never mentioned ravaging mobs. You did. I would never percieve you or anyone else as 'criminal scum' because you happen to come from XXX.

What I did say was that sexual crimes in my town, from low-level harassment to full rape have gone through the roof and that the 'police are looking for...' is almost always eastern European/Balkan /Asian. That does NOT mean that all people from those areas are criminal scum. But it DOES man that a lot of young men from those areas and who have little or no sense of propriety have settled here and it's not fair that some areas are now no-go.
We have enough homegrown scummery here, trust me :(

I take everyone on individual merit, as I have stated before. And before immigration reached these levels I was a full sandal-wearing, bean munching travelling hippy.
This was before I was subjected to sexual harassment, rape, intimidation, threatening behaviour, and witness to other such acts. In my country, not when I was in rucksack mode.
I do not blame YOU or hold you culpable. I do not blame wherever you come from.
I blame the actual criminals and authorities who are so scared of being tarred with the R brush that they won't do anything about it.

And as I have said before - I will give what I can when I can to others, but my family come first, and I will not impact on their lives or have them in danger because some crap governments can't be arsed to sort their own houses out.

Luna with respect you have no idea what levels of immigration are like in my country

Maybe we are naive about immigration, but i don't think i have really ever heard anyone say the kinds of things on this thread and elsewhere, i guess we just see it differently

I know that i hear a lot of misconceptions here - that immigrants are mostly on benefits, that we zoom to the top of council housing lists, that the uk is a soft toucb and easy for anyone to get in to- i used to correct them but now i think why bother

It really does suit some people to imagine themselves under siege by hostile hordes bent on destroying everything they value. I don't presume to know why

Chibi- the general perception is not that you are scum, just that mass immigration has let in a lot of undesirables alongside the decent hardworking ones like you. The op did ask if people thought there were problems with immigration. Looking on the positive side some come and fill skills shortages for example. It's those people that I would welcome, along with asylum seekers.

Fuck it i will say one more thing

I really really resent the assumption that we contribute nothing - i am not going to list all the things i bring as assets in terms of my skills and abilities or describe how i am active in my community in order to justify my existence but i am not a net drain on the country, and i don't think i am at all unusual in that respect

No, I do have no idea what levels are like. I would presume though that it is not an island... islanders have historically always been insular, that's island life, be it a diddy one in the channel or the hugity that is Australia.

And I do NOT go with misconceptions or media hyperbole, I go with things that I have seen and experienced with my own eyes. I do NOT take the view that I am "under siege by hostile invaders bent on destroying everything I value".
I do not dislike YOU, as I do not know you. I have nothing against you. I have nothing against anyone who bothers to learn the language and integrate, who respects the law. However, I sense that you would dislike me because I do not tow the 'party line'.

I have everything against assholes from anywhere, be it here, there, everywhere, who subject women to sexual assault and make previously safe areas verboten. Who go around picking peoples pockets. Who ritually dismember a defenceless child and then do their best to ensure that poor baby never even has the dignity of a known name. Who traffick women and children under false pretences and subject them to lord only knows what horrors. I have bloody huge issues the size of Texas with these. And whilst, unfortunately, besides jail we cannot do anything about the homegrown ones, we can do something about the 'imported' criminals. Boiling in oil is generally frowned upon, so deportation is a bloody good second choice.

Chibi I have only admiration for you and anyone else like you, and as I've said before, I do know what it is like to up sticks away from loved ones...and I did it pre-internet and mobile days

But I don't admire the gits who use the current situation to come and cause strife. I have been at the sharp end of it, and have also met decent people who pretend they are from elsewhere because they are so ashamed of their countrymen. How is that good?

If controlled immigration is such a bad thing, how come there are such strict regimes across Asia? Where it's insisted you support yourself, you pay for health, housing, where your visa is renewed under strict conditions, where there are strict restrictions on purchase of land, housing?

If you've been an immigrant, you can't be "against" immigration, it would be too hypocritical. But like people of every nation you are allowed to be protective of a hard fought for civil code and your traditions. It doesn't mean you want everything to stay the same, forever. It means you value what you have, traditions of social equality, tolerance, sexual equality and so on and you don't want to see them undermined and abused.

I would also add that there is a terrible exploitation in the movement of people which means that we are not always "helping the helpless". The truly helpless are left behind, with neither the money or resources to fight their way out. Thistledew: your idea of a global socialist paradise of equality is ironic: considering the inequalities that can arrive along with the benefits of other cultures. For one thing, a civil code that oppresses women is not welcome, in my view. Women in this country fought hard for their freedom and I am extremely intolerant of those who collude with an assault upon it.

Chibi: it's sad that you feel "lumped together" but you must know from your own social circle that there is no basis to this. The people who "lump together" (possibly the ccp's of this world) are in a minority.

Carmina: "My philosophy on immigration (which I have stated on MN before) is the same as most people's - and the same as most countries for that matter. ' nuclear scientist from Iraq - welcome my friend - toothless granny from Somalia with TB - on your bike "

I can assure you it's not the same as mine. What a hard-hearted sentiment. I'd rather have the granny.

The whole discussion seems predicated on the idea that a significant proportion, if not a majority of immigrants are a net drain in the country, which i think is flawed

And as far as i can see luna, you don't tow the party line, because you are a hell of a lot more measured and rational than many of the voices i hear discussing the issue

My home country accepts immigrants from the same places that immigrants to the uk come from, and refugees from everywhere, but i have never read a newspaper story from home about how they have sent the sex crime rate soaring, or how they scrounge benefits or eat swans

I have no idea why this might be so, it would be v interesting to find out

What is your country, chibi?

Chibi: I think "lumping together" happens on both sides: assert any kind of statement about the disbenefits of migration and you might lump people together as hostile racists. I think refusal on both sides to accept there is a middle ground, and that there are both disbenefits and benefits, leads to polarisation and extremism. I don't think you can deny the real stories that people tell. I don't think you can place the blame entirely on "perception".

The problem is there are people like ccp who just make one want to throw up one's hands and give up.

I agree about not discounting real stories, but a lot of the real stories i've heard have turned out to be 'my cousin's dh's mate works for the council and he says....'

I have had so many people tell me for instance that immigrants go to the front of thte housing queue...i had no recourse to public funds stamped on my visa, as would any non-eu migrant; this is a myth and just not remotely true

i used to get really frustrated that the government never bothered to correct these misconceptions, now in my more cynical moments i wonder if it doesn't just suit them to have a scapegoat for crappy shortsighted policies

Eg we have a housing shortage not because immigrants have taken all the housing but because housing stock was sold off and never replaced

StuckinTheMiddlewithYou Sun 15-May-11 11:59:26
TBH, I'm beginning to think that the powers that be are operating a "divide and conquer" policy. They are happy for us to fight amoungst ourselves, "native" people blaming immigrants for our problems therefore taking the heat off the people in charge.
Add message | Report | Message poster southeastastra Sun 15-May-11 12:03:24
i think we should maybe have sensible discussions about immigration but it's hard as people are labelled bigots for going against the grain on here.

PC people are tools of the international bankers as they create internal dissent and division which suppresses free thinking so the financial exploitation can continue. PC acts in different ways but to the same end point.

First they exploit the Liberals who are known for their naivete and stupidity but uber-belief in their own intelligence, who suppress free expression by the truly intelligent but also "ordinary people" through emotive dead end concepts such as racism and sexism. Would you rather be called "white bastard" and able to feed your family or not be able to feed your family in a pc heaven? (One is an unpleasant part of real life, the other is an unpleasant death).

So by creating internal dissent the truth cannot be known. For example immigration will create poverty and dissent instead of focussing people's energies against the real enemy.

First there was class, then religion, then nation state, then racism. Each subsequent layer of division more preposterous than the last and the people fed on a diet of media propaganda demand these divisions and give up more and more power, but sadly the more you keep saying the same thing over and over again, the more people believe it.

What can you do? Nothing but speak your truth quietly until it becomes too dangerous to do so. Should you do anything about it if you could? I wouldn't, because it is preferable to anarchy.

Yes I know some who read this will think, "Hang on there are a few logical leaps and gaps here." So there are.
Others might say, "loony" - fair enough, I would just say "tool"

Why are these people doing this? Cui Bono.
Most conspiracy theories are just absolute rubbish but there is definitely something strange going on and when the shit hits the fan in about 18 months there?s going to be a lot of flotsam and jetsam.

Rhian82 Sun 15-May-11 12:47:36
I'm with the OP, I have no personal experience of any problems with immigration (and I've lived in several very different parts of the UK). I do think most people who get worked up about it live in very white areas.

I know that is your experience but astonishingly naive anyway. In my experience those who don't particularly care about immigration live in white areas thus it doesn't affect them. Further those who are affected in "immigrant areas" have NO voice at all, read: poor, white, working class Brits. The middle class move out and care too much about public accusations of racism to admit that is why they moved out in the first place.

The three main parties don't want anything upsetting the status quo / the labour party became new labour/watered down Tory - anyone not playing the game is far right or 'loony left' - you have to say and do the right thing at all times, if you don't, you're mad or bad

People who live in predominantly immigrant areas and think multiculturalism works are a minority. Multiculturalism is largely an invention of the liberal middle and upper-middle classes. The urban, New Labourite proponents of liberal tolerance generally live in predominantly white areas, know a handful of skilled immigrants (and congratulate themselves on their cosmopolitanism and liberal credentials for having such friends) and use the fantasy of multiculturalism to assuage their guilt over Great-Great-Grandfather Godfrey's role in the slave trade.

What is your basis for saying this manatee? Some of your statements seem like they might be hard to substantiate.

"The problem is there are people like ccp who just make one want to throw up one's hands and give up."

Aww are you two making up? Why dont you have a hug. Bless.

The reason there is no middle ground is because the pro-immigration crowd stamp everything as racist. They've had it their own way for 14 years and its a huge relief to see some common sense returning.

I saw on PMQ today that they are removing the 14 years right to settle rule, where if an illegal managed to dodge being deported for 14 years they automatically had the right to stay. About time, with more than half a millon estimated illegals in the country (so that would be a mill or more then in real figures).

"i used to get really frustrated that the government never bothered to correct these misconceptions"

Because they are true chibi, whether you want to believe it or not. Sorry if that destroys your worldview or self image. Labour would have been the first to point out these so called 'misconceptions' if they existed, but they didnt. There is a basis of truth in all the stories. In fact Labour have come out and admitted that their immigration policy was wrong.

"Eg we have a housing shortage not because immigrants have taken all the housing but because housing stock was sold off and never replaced"

There would be a housing shortage without immigration, but immigration has made a bad situation vastly worse and the people who are loosing out are the locals. This is the point people are trying to make.

Oh sorry - thats another misconception isnt it. Everything is just fine. Nothing to see here

What on earth do you think a stamp on a visa which says 'no recourse to public funds' means ccp?

It means no right to jsa, no access to any other benefits, no council housing, no anything

But i am sure you know someone who knows someone who heard from some guy etc etc

Or maybe it was a secret code that actually means 'give the bearer a free mansion and all the cash they can carry' how clever to phrase it that way, lucky thing clever old you saw yhrough it hmm?