to not care about immigration?

[StuckinTheMiddlewithYou]

So many people seem to have a huge problem with it and I really don't understand why.

The crazy thing is, I live in a hugely multicultural area and most of the people I know who have a problem with this, live in predominantly white suburbs.

We have a problem here with alcoholic homeless people fighting and screaming in the streets - none of them are immigrants.

It's not about "colour", it's about being "like us". I don't think anyone has a problem (not even little old ladies in remote Yorkshire villages ) with Australians/Americans/Kiwis/South Africans/Western Europeans, no matter the colour - because generally they are of a Judeo-Christian mind-set and are proud to work/buy a nice house etc., etc. In fact, show your average British-lady-of-a-certain-age a well-turned out African-American and she'll start foaming at the gash mouth.

I have travelled, many of us have been lucky enough to do so, in fact I now live abroad, but I don't expect everyone in my host country to welcome me. That would be folly and naive. We have elderly members of our family who have chosen never to travel abroad, they don't want to try paella in Marbella, they don't want to go to Disneyland - but they're having other cultures and peoples forced upon them. I do think that's unfair. Great for those of us who want to mix with other cultures (inside our own comfort zone!) - but it's not fair to impose this on people who did not choose it.

There are (should be) limits!

That is not my argument. I don't argue against migration: I have been one. My argument would be that we have failed to ensure that immigration works well so that people are not resentful, angry and discomfited.

It means we have not sought to insist that our civil code prevails, or that incomers will accept the need to abide by it, as well as the legal code.

This is because of a difficulty in articulating that our civil and moral code is different and often preferable to that of some other countries.

It is not "nasty individuals doing bad things". You need to bear in mind that in some countries, an act which may be against the law is actually required by that country's civil code. That's not the act of an individual - it's the end result of a powerful social construct and one that Britain neither wants or needs.

That needs to be acknowledged, whereas trying to reduce it to talk of "diddums doesn't like the nasty people" (I exaggerate but you get my point) is just simplifying it - again.

sorry alllll of that was a reply to Thistledew

Ccc- I was thinking of the COMESA states, which were more stable once, but I accept that it now includes some very unstable ones, because some were added since its inception and some states have deteriorated. If you are genuinely interested to know which states are more stable than others, I would suggest Ghana, Gambia, Mali, Botswana, Madagasgar, and Namibia, for starters.

Goose, I said it was about resources, and the right of every person to be free of hunger and thirst, and to have a roof over their head and basic healthcare.

I just wanted to say Lunabelly what an incredible post - I agree wholeheartedly. We encouraged immigration in the 50s & 60s because we needed the workforce - they were on the whole hardworking, here for a better life and embraced our culture whilst retaining the best of their own. It seems now that immigrants come for the "new life" then largely stick to their own populations and culture so not a new life in a new country but the same life in a different country.

We no longer need mass immigration from unskilled workers - employers need to be gently "encouraged" by the government to pay people a decent wage for a decent days work - the rich are getting richer here whilst looking down on the working classes for wanting a reasonable standard of living for themselves.

My husband is a tradesman and is working for less per day than he did 5 years ago - luckily he has a good local reputation and some very loyal customers. We did go through a very rocky patch a few years ago where he was constantly competing with eastern europeans who, as they were living 10 to a house and did not have mortgages to support were undercutting us massively - I have to say this has now largely tailed off either because I think they realised they were being exploited and now charge a decent rates or realised it wasnt really possible to live in this part of the UK on what they were charging. It is common knowledge that there are areas in Slough where immigrants wait to pick up day rate/cash work.

I dont blame any one for wanting to improve their standard of life - the people at fault here are the labour government, greedy employers who bin UK workers in favour of cheap immigrants and every one of you who has paid cash to an eastern european for building work!

I cant help thinking Thistle is middle class and has a luxury car sitting on the drive...very easy to be gracious from an ivory tower.

Thistle - clearly we even disagree on how we define stable! Some of The countries you mention have high terrorism levels, are in a state of emergency, ongoing political unrest, and/ or subject to civil unrest. Great examples!

Goose. I am interested in your argument, and one argument I make against my own one for derestriction of immigration control is that if we were to live in a democratic society that votes for the destruction of human rights, should we all have to accept that?

However, I see that there are more people in favour of human rights than against, whether they are from our own culture or from others. I think our rule of law is strong enough to withstand a minority of people who want to destroy it.

Do you have any examples of elements of other civil coded that have managed to entrench themselves in our society?

Yes I like Lunabelly's post too, it seems very measured.

Thistle: our rule of law is unfortunately undermined most efficiently not by the individual who flouts it, but by the powerful colluding in its mass flouting in the name of tolerance and mutlticulturalism.

What kind of examples do you need.

I would cite female subservience in some areas for example. By "our" society I count everyone who lives here: I don't count people as less important because they aren't white or don't live in my "community". In certain sections female subservience seems entrenched.

Alpinepony, I disagree, I think it is about colour for a lot of people. Cookcleaner, for example, has said that she finds it worrying to think that whites might become a minority. "whites", not "people like us". Whatever that means....

In any case, people like who? I know lots of Brits, Americans, western Europeans etc who are nothing like me!

And I know a fair few people from outside the Judeo-Christian tradition who are perfectly proud to work and happen to have bought lovely houses! Not really sure why you brought that into the argument, really...

"whites" was the term used by The Guardian newspaper. Colour does not come into it for me.

Cookcleaner, thank you for this clarification. Could you please now answer my original question as to why you find the prospect of whites being in a minority worrying, bearing in mind the fact that a majority of non-whites does not mean a majority of immigrants?

Because I genuinely don't understand this, and I would like to know.

Some of the views on this thread have made me very sad. Why on earth wouldn't someone from a deperately poor, oppressive country want to come somewhere where things were easier for them and their families.
Yes I understand that the UK can't take and care for every desperate person in the world but if the world was a bit more equal it wouldn't be an issue.
And as for ccp-whatever, your flippant comment about "shot a few people a couple of centuries ago" is highly offensive. I'm from a former colony and the past isn't as far away as people seem to think. Do you really think it doesn't still have an impact today? Colonialism lasted for a long, long time and only ended a few decades ago, well within living memory.
This immigrant thinks some people should have a bit of empathy.

xkittyx - I'm sorry this has made you sad. FWIW, there are plenty of people out there who do care, do empathise and do understand, whatever their views on the immigration statistics. Unfortunately, there is also a very vocal minority who like to blame every problem they can think of on foreigners who happen to be living in the UK, and there are a number of trashy newspapers that like to pander to this trend.

FWIW, I do care, empathise and understand, and, whilst I will not pretend that I understand the history of colonisation, I do find it completely out of order that it happened.
Of course people from oppressive and desperately poor places would want to get out of that situation, no-one with half a brain could blame anyone for that. All the women and children who have been abused, raped, and horrifically injured, I want to scoop them up and make them better. I want to give the bastards who hurt them a taste of their own medicine.

But here's the thing. I can't.
What CAN be done? Maybe kick the arse of the governments who crap up such places. Education education education. You can take in millions of girls who are at risk of fgm, you can set up all these fistula clinics, but until the people who perpetrate such acts are educated, it will carry on.

How can a country claw its way out of crappitude if everyone leaves? As, I imagine that one of the things that made this country once great was the ebb and flow of new blood.
I wish everyone did have equal access to health, education etc. But it is not MY fault that they don't. It is their craptastic government's.
It sickens me that some people have billions and billions, 10 houses for one person when people are living on rubbish dumps.
But making everyone live on rubbish dumps because of such huge population shifts is NOT the answer.

I will NOT compromise my family's safety or lifestyle (such as it is - we have never been on holiday and do not drive) because, for example, a government thinks that having a nuclear weapons programme is more important than its population.
What would you have happen? The entire world come and live in Tower Hamlets? That is neither feasible or sensible. What we should be doing, instead of metaphorically clearing up after asshole regimes is kicking humanitarian arse.
I do realise that we are not allowed to napalm the bastards who commit such atrocities such as in, say, the Congo (more's the pity), but maybe we SHOULD get a little tougher.

So just because I can SEE that the cupboard is full, doesn't mean that I don't care. It doesn't mean that I hate you. I take people on individual merit, not on skin colour or nationality.
But it IS getting silly now. Like I say, time to properly kick humanitarian arse so that people CAN live in their own countries. Because believe me, I do know what it's like to be thousands of miles from loved ones.

Luna - what you can do, on an individual level, without the slightest risk to your family's standard of living, is to take an active part in reminding every person you meet that 'foreigners' are people too, and are just as deserving of basic human rights such as food, clean water, healthcare and education as you are. And that we, as human beings, have a duty to make sure they achieve this.

You can also make sure you buy only fair trade produce, and whereever possible make sure that your actions promote a fairer life for all human beings.

This is the minimum that anyone can do.

I think Luna made the point that governments need to change: that this is not in many cases a natural imbalance, caused by deficits in natural resources. It's usually more of a politically inflicted imbalance that needs to be resolved, as is being seen in north Africa and the Middle East. Guilt is not a constructive policy maker. You are wrong to say, colonialism this, therefore x y z. I think this is a common mistake though.

There is a cupboard. It's not massive, but it's not teeny tiny. It's full of the most wonderful things, in all beautiful colours and styles, which rest upon well supported shelves and hooks.

But the cupboard keeps having more and more things shoved in it willy-nilly. These things are -in the main- still beautiful, but they are simply thrown in without care or attention. The shelves start bowing under the weight, and the hooks get a little warped.

But the cupboard owner doesn't care, and carries on filling it. Then the door starts to buckle and groan, because it can't quite shut properly.

Do you A) Sort out the cupboard, fix the shelves and hooks, distribute all the pretty things evenly and tidily, fix the door and stop cramming things in.

Or B) Just carry on regardless, until everything inside breaks including the support shelves and hooks, and ALL the beautiful things inside get crushed and damaged and the door busts open due to the pressure?

Luna - the trouble with your cupboard analogy is twofold:

Firstly, it is not an analogy that stands up on its own, but is one that depends wholly on your viewpoint. You could just as easily word it this way:

There is a cupboard that contains some lovely things. The things in the cupboard are well supported, admired and kept safe.

Other things saw the cupboard, and thought that they would like a place in it too. They were fed of being kicked about on the floor, getting all scuffed and broken. They knew that they were no less precious than the things that had a place in the cupboard, and thought it very unfair that they were treated so differently.

The things outside the cupboard thought that if there was not room enough for all the things in the cupboard, then maybe it was unfair to have cupboards at all. That if everything was laid out on the floor together, they would have a much better chance of being treated equally, and the cupboard things would not be seen as being more precious, just because they already had a place in the cupboard.

The things thought that cupboards were a silly idea, and that maybe we should get rid of them.

Secondly, we are talking about people, not inanimate objects. Somehow it is easier to justify things getting kicked around in the dirt if you dehumanise them.

IMO it's just an issue of racism. I say this as a Kiwi in London who has never been given a hard time about immigrants even though I am clearly not British, and have probably "taken" jobs from locals if I am the best candidate. I have a friend who is 1st generation Brit but a Bangladeshi, she gets told to go home by people in the street when I don't. Why not? I'm white.

AlpinePony I disagree, it is about colour. NZ friends of mine of Asian or minority descent aren't always welcomed with open arms either, even though I have been. Again, because I am white.

Paisley -sorry but you are a hypocrite. You're stereotyping the shit out of eastern europeans whilst accusing them of the same thing towards english people

From the pov of an eastern european i can tell you - it's just as difficult to get a job, if not even more difficult. For people with basic skills i don't get the "willing to work for less" it's usually nmw or a few pennies more. It's hardly that X supermarket would say "oh you're foreign! Wanna work for 20p less an hour?" And some people are lazy and some aren't. Regardless of where they were born. As for benefits, are you serious? If i wouln't be working, i wouldn't be entitled to anything. Not even jsa. It's not EASY at all. I work and get paid the same as the rest of my british colleagues because we're doing the same thing.
Trust me if i had the choice to leave, i would. It's a lovely country but the hostility and judgmental people i come across just ruin it. And it's funny, if i wouldn't tell people i'm eastern european they'd be fine.

I wholeheartedly agree with some of the posters - diversity is good but sometimes it gets too much. I think there should be some basic rules for migrants/immigrants like the willingness to blend in, be a part of the community and country they're moving to as opposed to some creating their own little groups and being oblivious to the rest. Oh, an acceptable level of english.

Montparnasse, you obviously fall into that magical category of people "like us".

I understand that what I said will have made some people feel uncomfortable, I really do understand. But, I think I articulated how (many) people feel - rightly or wrongly.

montparnasse I have never been to NZ, but my understanding is that there has been an enormous amount of immigration in to NZ over the last 10 years too which has probably led to the difficult situation your (of) Asian (descent) friends at home face. :(

Anyway, someone was talking a few pages back about the segregation at schools. The primary school my son will go to is just around the corner and when we walk past at play-time there is a very definite segregation. "Brown" faces on one side of the playground, "white" faces on the other.

Please do not tell me that I am racist. I am sick and tired of that word being bandied around.
TBH, I think that chucking that word around to often is quite harmful and dimishes REAL racism.
This is an issue that NEEDS a measured debate, not have the R word thrown in.
Other people might be racist, that is their prerogative, like it or no - I cannot presume to change anyone's mindset no matter how distasteful it might be, and nor can you.
You can try to educate people, but if all they know of other cultures is so-and-so down the road who got carted off under the terrorism act or XYZ got knifed, well, I think you'll have a tough time.
My dad was born in South Africa - I've banged my head against a brick wall all my life there, and have had to stop in case I get an aneurysm.

For me, it is totally about overcrowding and rising levels of crimes that before were incredibly rare.
If someone wants to better their life, why then bring all the shit that contributes to a crap life?
That poor boy who was found floating in the Thames in 2001, who's identity has only been discovered this year. A 6-year old, called Ikpomwosa.
Why bring such hideous practices with you? Why not leave that stuff in the nightmare you've left?
Why was a man connected to the case only given 4 years for trafficking children?

My cupboard analogy is because some people just do not get the fact that there is only so much space, so much education, so much healthcare. I am NOT calling people things.
If you think that cupboardyness is a stupid idea that should be got rid of, then you would have the entire world decamp to Tower Hamlets then?
How does that help anyone?

I do buy FairTrade wherever I can, my wonderful stepmum is a furriner, the father of my eldest is a furriner, and believe me, I do have friends and ex, erm...paramours of all shades and cultures. (One that comes to mind was a Libyan guy who's dad was a pal of Gaddafi...he wanted to take me to meet G. I told him that that is REALLY not the way to impress an English grrrl.) I also have a real thing about gentleman such as Gok Wan (yes I know, I know) and Jet Li, noum noum noum. I don't think a racist would want to run off into the sunset with Thierry Henri, either. OMG, he's beautiful and HE SPEAKS FRENCH.

But all that doesn't mean that I think that overcrowding is a jolly wheeze. Overcrowding is Victorian, and breeds resentment, disease and social disorder. And that doesn't mean that I think that people should be allowed to get away with heinous acts. And that doesn't mean that I don't think that crap governments should be allowed to carry on being crap.
Time to shut the doors, stabilise and integrate all that we have now, THEN in a few years start again.

Well I thought the cupboard analogy rather good. But Thistledew: if you want good analogy, think of an ark. Britain cannot be the ark that saves the world. You can do things in the ark to help others who are not in the ark, with food, and medical help, and instructions on how to build their own ark. But you cannot help people to the extent of sinking the ark: and if you can't hand the ark's control over to people you've helped because you feel sorry for them.

I don't know how many people mind incomers who work for the same rate of pay, recognise the civil code, observe the legal code, generally try to fit in. Who cares about that? You don't seem to understand that people mind when they, already struggling, already short of money and jobs, are being asked to accomodate those who don't seem to want to do any of the above.

Also I think it's stretching a point to say that Luna is reducing people to "things" with her analogy. I wanted to say earlier but didn't (but will now that you've claimed others are less empathetic than you) that your own view strikes me as treating "everyone else except us" as children. This is wrong. It's very patronising and a little colonial.

"your flippant comment about "shot a few people a couple of centuries ago" is highly offensive." - xkittyx

Cry me a fucking river.

No doubt weve apologised for whatever bad thing that we did generations ago, as our spineless governments begrudgingly do nowadays in the face of incessant post colonial whining, so its done. Move on.

(Its too raw for you to move on? Will this big handful of cash help? What about free access to our markets, undercutting our own workers too? Not too raw now? Excellent)

The only reason these debates fall into issues of Race magicmummy1, is becasue you keep accusing people of it. Its a old diversionary trick that worked well for the last government, but not as effective in this new climate of common sense and straight talking.

WRT Leicester - its already majority immigrant. I know it very well and have many friends there, and they all, without fail, are unhappy about the loss of control of their city. I suspect that if you dont feel the same then you havent been there long enough to see the changes, or you are one of the new controllers yourself.

I'm probably wrong, but it feels quite good to accuse you of vested interests :)