To expect an apology?

[JellyBeansOnToast]

Back story to this one: Inspired by the recent 'Slutwalk' campaigns, one of my friends brought it up at the dinner table. I expressed my agreement with the shocking idea that women should not dress 'like sluts' in order to avoid being raped, as this puts some of the blame on the victim and therefore takes it away from the one true perpetrator, which is the man. Another friend pretty much exploded, and said that of course it was more likely a woman would be raped if she were wearing a short skirt. I objected extremely (and indeed probably too aggressively) strongly, and said that this was a horrible misapprehension about the motives of rape. I was raped myself, and the two friends arguing against me both knew this. I got myself into a bit of a tizz, and probably wasn't particularly pleasant in my arguing style. I referenced my five years of work with Rape Crisis, to which one retorted 'I don't care'. I had to leave the table, as I knew I was just going to get even more wound up, and I was very upset.

Now, I am aware I need to apologise to my friends for my own aggressive style (which I believe is somewhat but not entirely mitigated by my experiences), but I'd also like one back for the tactless and also aggressive way they responded, and dismissed my experience, which is far more than they have both personally and professionally. However, a friend who didn't get too involved with the argument, but agreed with the friend who did, thinks that I shouldn't get one back. AIBU to think that despite however I may have acted, they weren't exactly perfect and that there should be a bit of give and take in order to resolve this?

Sorry for the essay.

Yes, I think you should both apologise to each other once you've both calmed down.

I think you ALL need to apologise to each other and clear the air. Even if someone believes they are right, there is nothing to stop them apologising for saying something that is hurtful to the other person.

The problem with rape (as a you well know from your experience and your volunteer work) as it goes unreported and you don't know what your friend's experiences were to make them so angry.

On one of the other threads one mumsnetter (a victim herself) believed that if she had been dressed diffrently she would not have been raped.

Can I ask a question, I don't mean to be offensive.

If a rapist is out looking for someone to rape, he is going to rape someone. The only fault is with the rapist. However, in selecting his victim, he is (presumably?) more likely to go for someone in a mini skirt and high heels rather than someone wearing jeans and trainers. So whilst anyone has the right to wear whatever they like, isn't it a fact that you would be more likely to be raped wearing the mini and heels than the jeans and trainers?

Sorry if this is ignorant.

I wouldn't apologise. Someone who can say "I don't care" in this particular context doesn't deserve an apology. Besides, he/she sounds like a complete fuckwit. Apart from the fact that you are right, the words "I don't care" are hardly a mature, well thought out argument, but are more like a kid having a strop.

Are you sure you want this kind of person as a friend?

Stranger rapes are relatively rare, greenlime. I would imagine such an opportunist rapist would be more interested in who looked vulnerable than what they were wearing.

greenlime, women (and men) have been raped in their own beds, in their own homes, by a man unknown to them, looking for someone to rape. Don't suppose they were wearing high heels and short skirts?

JellyBeansOnToast

YABU as well as being a drama queen.

rape isn't about sex greenlime. it isn't about sexual attractiveness or nice legs etc. it is about power and control. if someone sets out to rape, they will usually have their victim in mind whether he/she is wearing revealing clothing or a binliner.

I think a rapist will attack, no matter what a victim is wearing. If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't ever get old ladies being attacked. They are not generally dressed 'provocatively'.

We must preserve the right of women to wear whatever they want.She should be able to walk down the street naked and no one has the right to touch her against her will. It is never a woman's fault that she is raped.

It is also highly insulting to men, to imply that they cannot control themselves in the presence of a woman wearing a short skirt.

the problem with apology is that it has to be freely given.. you have to apologise knowing that you may not get one back, otherwise it isn't a full apology.

if you feel you can, then you can apologise for getting so would up but you'd be entitled to explain that the reason you were wound up is that it's a topic very close to your heart.

however, you cannot expect and apology in return, you can only hope for one, and if you don't get one then you can rethink your relationship with these 'friends'.

"We must preserve the right of women to wear whatever they want.She should be able to walk down the street naked and no one has the right to touch her against her will. It is never a woman's fault that she is raped.

It is also highly insulting to men, to imply that they cannot control themselves in the presence of a woman wearing a short skirt"

well said karma

The subject is very emotive. I can see both sides of the argument to be fair.

If a woman dresses provocatively and behaves provocatively, she IS giving men the message that she is looking for sex. I am not for one moment saying that gives any man the right to rape her. I would also guess that many stranger rapes/sex attack actually go unreported, so the true figures will never actually be known.

I agree with Karmabeliever, I wouldn't apologise either. I would also struggle to maintain friendships with people who hold such ignorant views on an issue like rape, I would lose all respect for them.

It's tempting to blame the victim for wearing the wrong clothes/shoes because then we can comfort ourselves that it "won't happen to us" because we don't dress like that. This is, of course, bollocks as it can happen to anyone.

You probably all need to apologise to each other but I'd still be fuming if I were you (but I'm like that).

TBH, I think a rapist just goes for anyone who they have the opportunity with. But, because women and girls who are wearing short skirts are probably more likely to be drunk, and less likely to run off if they are wearing heels then statistically they are more likely to be seen as "easy pickings". And of course we have the huge amount of women who are drugged in pubs, women who go to a man's house for a couple of drinks and a snog and get forced into more than they want, and so on. All more likely to be wearing so called "slutty" clothes.

Loads of prostitutes get raped and attacked though, and, IME, they (and I'm really not trying to be nasty here) are rarely what you would call healthy looking and seductive. They are just seen as easy pickings.

Doesn't matter though. Nobody tells old people it is thier fault for walking down the street when they get mugged.

No, don't apologise. You did nothing wrong, perhaps were over aggressive - but they were ignorant, insulting and being terribly rude. You've been raped, but they 'dont care'? I'd be wondering whether they're friends I'd like to keep, myself.

I think we've all blurted out an 'I don't care' at some point or another when we're angry haven't we?

And to be fair, she might have meant the fact the OP has worked for Rape Crisis for 5yrs, doesn't automatically make her own opinion less valid.

Cheers, BiPolarPauline. I have said I am more than willing to apologise, as my manner wasn't brilliant - all I asked is if I should expect an apology in return. Hardly drama queen-esque, but that's just my opinion.

Greenlimes: nope, a rapist (and in this context we mean a random attacker) is doing so for power and control, not because they find someone sexy. Lust is totally irrelevant. Grannies are raped, as are women in tracksuits, pyjamas, burqas, skirts etc. No relation between clothes. And to say a woman is 'more likely' is to put some of the blame on her, because if she had dressed differently then it wouldn't have happened to her. But yes, an issue for another day - I just want to know if I am BU to want someone to say sorry to me, when I say sorry to them.

It is never a woman's fault that she is raped.

I agree, BUT a woman is responsible for her own safety, and a woman should not put herself in unnecessary danger simply because she believes that is her "right" to walk on her own down a dimly lit street in a dodgy area, (regardless of what she is wearing). Nobody would think it right that a child should be abducted, but you wouldnt wave your 3 year old off down the road by themselves and then say "it wasnt their fault". Personal responsibility is common sense.

I am no doubt going to get flamed for this but what you wear does effect how you are treated, I always like it when my DDs dress up and like to be quite 'flashy' myself when I go out with friends, family and especially DH. It is important to me to look the best I can and the lasses go way way over the top at times when their out LOCALLY with their mates I'm ok with that because it is important to them and the truth is if anyone did get their eye on one of them with evil intent they is no chance they would be able to take it any further.

BUT when say their getting a train down to London I tell them to wear cover up clothes and look 'dowdy' don't make eye contact and start any banter (they are very cheeky lasses) because all attention is not positive attention and it is better to render yourself invisible than come to the attention of a 'wolf'.

I have taught them everything my DM taught and my DDs know how to fight a man off how to head butt and break a mans nose ect but I would always always say don't put yourself at risk its Mams rule number one.

personal responsibility means not drinking yourself to oblivion and planning to get home on a wing and a prayer squeakytoy dressing in a mini skirt and heels is not neglecting your own personal safety.

They will only apologise if they feel they were in the wrong. If they feel justified in their opinion (and the manner in which it was delivered), then you will likely make your apology, which they will accept, but won't apologise in return. This will leave them feeling as if they were in the right (because you apologised).

If you feel you must say something, then confine yourself to saying that your manner was heated, which you regret, but that you stand by the content if not the delivery.

Quite right beesimo. "Lasses" never get raped in their own locality, by people they may know. Oh no. It's just when they venture to the wilds of London. Absolutely.

And for as long as we believe the claptrap about what you wear making a difference, we will have judges and juries making decisions about sentencing or verdicts accordingly...