To expect an apology?

[JellyBeansOnToast]

Back story to this one: Inspired by the recent 'Slutwalk' campaigns, one of my friends brought it up at the dinner table. I expressed my agreement with the shocking idea that women should not dress 'like sluts' in order to avoid being raped, as this puts some of the blame on the victim and therefore takes it away from the one true perpetrator, which is the man. Another friend pretty much exploded, and said that of course it was more likely a woman would be raped if she were wearing a short skirt. I objected extremely (and indeed probably too aggressively) strongly, and said that this was a horrible misapprehension about the motives of rape. I was raped myself, and the two friends arguing against me both knew this. I got myself into a bit of a tizz, and probably wasn't particularly pleasant in my arguing style. I referenced my five years of work with Rape Crisis, to which one retorted 'I don't care'. I had to leave the table, as I knew I was just going to get even more wound up, and I was very upset.

Now, I am aware I need to apologise to my friends for my own aggressive style (which I believe is somewhat but not entirely mitigated by my experiences), but I'd also like one back for the tactless and also aggressive way they responded, and dismissed my experience, which is far more than they have both personally and professionally. However, a friend who didn't get too involved with the argument, but agreed with the friend who did, thinks that I shouldn't get one back. AIBU to think that despite however I may have acted, they weren't exactly perfect and that there should be a bit of give and take in order to resolve this?

Sorry for the essay.

How many women do you estimate were raped in their own homes in the years it took to find the murderer, squeakytoy?

Somewhere in the region of 8% of rapes are stranger rapes. The rest of the rapists are know to the victim, in various degrees of intimacy whether from being on nodding terms in the corner shop or such like or being married to them. Those rapists are just as opportunistic as the stranger rapists.

If you are raped, it is because you are unlucky enough to have met a rapist. It has nothing to do with how sexy you look.

But squeakytoy that's the point, isn't it? Your 'middle aged woman' wasn't putting herself in danger. The rapist was putting her in danger

I agreet an extent, but in hindsight she was in a deserted area, and if she had been with a friend, or taken the longer but more public route, she would probably be alive today.

The saying better safe than sorry springs to mind.

Its all well and good saying "but I have the right to do blah blah blah", that right doesnt mean your rapist respects your rights, and wouldnt make the pain any easier to bear. I am fairly sure that almost every woman who has been raped by a stranger while walking somewhere knows damn well she isnt to blame, but wishes to god she had taken a different route that time.

Neither rape nor assault is at all the fault of the woman and entirely the fault of the man. If the man can say 'oh, she was well up for it, she was wearing a skirt' and other people agree with them, then you are creating circumstances where it's almost acceptable or expected for rape / assault to occur. If we perpetuate the myth, more men will think they can get away with acting inappropriately, because some of the blame will be expected to lie with the woman.

Have your dds studied martial arts beesimo? If not, I think they may find it a tad difficult to headbutt and/or break the nose of an assailant who has snuck up behind them and has an arm around their neck and a knife at their throat.

As for your dm's rule number one 'don't put yourself at risk' - your dds won't be at risk if they stay in bed unless, of course, they wake up to find an intruder wielding a knife or other weapon with intent to rape/assult/steal/murder.

Irresepctive of gender, we shouldn't have to teach our dcs how to become invisible when going about their legitimate business, but unfortunately some individuals are not equipped with moral brakes.

dita, you were attacked because someone chose to attack you. not because of what you wore. men who wear gang colours are attacked because someone else makes a conscious decision to attack them. it is perfectly possible to see someone wearing a colour you finf offensive and not attack them.

Well said Ayerobot - attractiveness / sex appeal is FA to do with it. Being raped simply means you ran into a rapist or already had one in your life. No control from the woman.

What Booyhoo said RE gang colours.

Valhalla I wish you had been there! I think I'll have you as my friend instead :)

Op- I hope you're ok

Noone can ask to be raped. Ever! the only way that could happen is to walk up to a rapist and say please rape me. But of course then it wouldn't be rape because it was asked for.

There is never any way a woman asks to be raped, clothes are not asking, being in a certain area isn't asking and being on your own is not asking.

If you are raped, it is because you are unlucky enough to have met a rapist. It has nothing to do with how sexy you look

I am fully aware of that, but my point is, if you are dressed in high heels, you are less able to fight off an attacker, and if you are wearing a short skirt, the rapist knows he has less clothing to get through in a struggle, rather than pick a woman wearing trainers and jeans.

Regarding the statistics, as I said earlier, rape statistics are highly inaccurate due to the fact that so many women do not report rapes. 8% is still 8% too many.

I have 2 grown up stepdaughters and they were always taught to be aware of their personal safety at all times. If one of them had been intending to walk home alone from a nightclub at 3am in a tight short mini skirt and platforms, past a large public park, and various other dark deserted areas, do you think I would be happy with saying "go for it love, you look gorgeous, and if anyone rapes you, dont worry, it wont be your fault, its the bad rapist who is to blame", of course I wouldnt, nor would I say "if you get raped it is your own fault"..

I would say "do not walk home at 3am, book a cab, stay with your mates and keep your eye on your drinks", if they had then chosen to ignore that, and anything had happened to them on the way home, I would be horrified and very upset, but I would also be bloody furious that they had ignored the dangers and put themselves in a place where they were more likely to be at risk.

The one who is more mature is to apologize first after a heated argument. And no, it is not reasonable to expect one back.
You may wish to review your relations if you not get what you think they should though.
Your other friend who stayed calm during the discussion might have a better understanding of what was said during the argument than the bunch of strangers on MN.

I am fairly sure that almost every woman who has been raped by a stranger while walking somewhere knows damn well she isnt to blame, but wishes to god she had taken a different route that time.

And how, pray, is one meant to avoid these areas where women are raped? Are they marked on the OS map?

This subject is quite sensitive for me, as I was raped and happened to be wearing quite skimpy clothing at the time. (A vest top and shorts as I had spent the day at the beach.) I wondered in the aftermath whether I was in some way to blame for showing off my body, and the reason I felt I might be to blame was because of views such as those that the OP's friends perpetuated, that somehow I had attracted a rapist by showing my legs and some cleavage. It took alot of counselling for me to get away from that mindset.

Everytime people suggest that women are in some way to blame for their rapes, or weren't responsible enough, there will be someone somewhere reading or listening who will take that to heart and believe it. They will be going through hell trying to deal with the aftermath of their ordeal and that sort of shit will make them feel even worse.

Surely it's the non-stranger rapes that are less likely to be reported, so the stranger rapes probably make up an even smaller percentage of the total? What advice do you give your step-daughters so that they can avoid non-stranger rapes?

I totally understand where you are coming from and I am not completely careless about my personal safety, but more from a mugging perspective. The fear of stranger rape is disproportionate and the clothing/behaviour rape myths are extremely damaging to justice in rape cases and personal freedoms as well as being insulting to the vast majority of men who are not rapists.

And how, pray, is one meant to avoid these areas where women are raped? Are they marked on the OS map?

I would personally consider any area where there are no people around, and where someone could be hiding in wait for the offchance that any lone woman walks that way to be an area to avoid if I were alone. It doesnt take a sat nav or a map to work that one out.

Women have been attacked in the park near our home, lone women out walking their dogs. Back alleyways, deserted wasteland, short cuts, public toilets in deserted bus stations or train stations are all known areas that sex attackers will target.

I'm sorry you had to go through this too, Millie. Those were my thoughts - women automatically have to live with extreme feelings of guilt, shame and even embarrassment about being raped. They're much less likely to deal with it effectively or even report the rape if they think that they will be judged and blamed by other women because of where they were or what they were wearing.

Lawyers use this in court in order to defend rapists. 'Oh she was in a short skirt - she must have been up for sex'. Even if she had been, I imagine she wanted it to be consensual. Doesn't matter if she'd had 1000 sexual partners, doesn't make it okay to rape her. 'Oh she was walking home alone at night - didn't she care about her safety?' Um so being alone is a crime and she should have expected it? Your client was just the one lucky enough to be able to take advantage of the situation, and can't be blame for giving into his urges after seeing a woman alone at night?!

squeaky, people are raped in their on beds at night both by people they know and strangers who have broken in. how on earth do you account for that 'neglect of personal safety'? should they have upped their home security system? if the rapist is known to them, what then? should they have spoken to all previous girlfriends to determine if their partner has ever raped before? when do we draw the line at the victim taking responsibility?

I am sorry he raped you, Millie. It was not your fault.

What advice do you give your step-daughters so that they can avoid non-stranger rapes?

I dont think there is any advice that you can really give for that. It is a horrible thing that sadly happens far too often to too many women, lots of them who dont even realise that it IS rape.

As far as I know, both my girls have been sensible in their choice of partners and friends, as much as anyone can be, and neither of them ever gets completely hammered to the point that they dont have their wits about them with male friends. One girl is in the police force and is very aware of the danger signs and would also be likely to knock out any bloke, stranger or otherwise who tried to force himself on her.

Booy, I have (I thought) made it clear that I was talking about stranger rape when I mention being responsible for your personal safety and not willfully putting yourself into what could potentially be a dangerous situation.

" if you are dressed in high heels, you are less able to fight off an attacker, and if you are wearing a short skirt, the rapist knows he has less clothing to get through in a struggle, rather than pick a woman wearing trainers and jeans. "

Even if that is true, (and i cannot pretend to be able to inhabit the mind of a rapist) it still doesn't mean it is any more the responsibility of the victim

Jellybean, I am very sorry you were attacked, and whatever thier views, your friends should have shown far more sensitivity and tact in expessing the, and had some understanding that you would take the conversation v sensitively. And in addition to being understanding about how being raped affected your argument, it was incredibly rude and ignorant to dismiss something like 5 years experience with an expert organisation like Rape Crisis.

Yes, you could apologise for 'losing it' but unless they acknowledge any responsibility for their own behaviour, your apology will have the benefit of restoring your own sense of self to the moral high ground, but will leave you with some pretty poor apologies for real friends, IMO.

ok squeaky, i accept that.

If I've felt the need to apologise for my behaviour I've always tendered my abject regret without expectation as to the response I may receive.

I suggest you start from that premise JellyBeansOnToast, and subsequently assess whether the response you get is appropriate after you've apologised.

If Bacchus played a part in the strength of your objections to what was being said, I'd blame him, give friend/s a call and say that your memory's a bit hazy and you hope you weren't too much of an arse. Note: there's no apology in that statement; just an opening for an appropriate exchange of (non-heated) words.

If you were all stone cold sober there's even less excuse for boorish behaviour at the dinner table, and I suggest you make sure the booze flows uninterrupted when you meet up again so that you can all sob drunkenly forgivingly into each others' arms if one or more of you oversteps the rules of engagement relating to civilised debate.

We were sober, and to be honest I'd much rather do the next bit sober. I'll probably come over all unreasonable if I'm pissed, and it won't do much to aid my argument or my apology.

I will apologise for my manner, not for the content. I would like an apology or explanation for their manner, and for some of their content. If it doesn't happen then I will probably lose some friends. This upsets me greatly tbh, as it'll be very difficult considering we're all at university together and live within about forty seconds of each other.

I am absolutely aghast at some of the views on this thread

I to have been raped (by a man I went for a drink with - clearly my fault ) and I can assure you, the last thing any woman who has been raped needs is the insinuation that they brought it on themselves.

OP I wouldn't apologise. I would seethe and fume and find it hard to forgive their utter heartlessness tbh.

I have a question - well two actually. Is it still the case where, if women feel they are being followed and may be in danger of being raped, that they pick their nose/bum/do anything else to make themselves look less attractive?

And secondly, if the defending lawyer in a rape case says something like "she was dressed provocatively, she was asking for it", which has a very clear logic gap, but one that judges seem not to see, are the prosecution pointing out the logic gap? Is that allowed in law?