To expect an apology?

[JellyBeansOnToast]

Back story to this one: Inspired by the recent 'Slutwalk' campaigns, one of my friends brought it up at the dinner table. I expressed my agreement with the shocking idea that women should not dress 'like sluts' in order to avoid being raped, as this puts some of the blame on the victim and therefore takes it away from the one true perpetrator, which is the man. Another friend pretty much exploded, and said that of course it was more likely a woman would be raped if she were wearing a short skirt. I objected extremely (and indeed probably too aggressively) strongly, and said that this was a horrible misapprehension about the motives of rape. I was raped myself, and the two friends arguing against me both knew this. I got myself into a bit of a tizz, and probably wasn't particularly pleasant in my arguing style. I referenced my five years of work with Rape Crisis, to which one retorted 'I don't care'. I had to leave the table, as I knew I was just going to get even more wound up, and I was very upset.

Now, I am aware I need to apologise to my friends for my own aggressive style (which I believe is somewhat but not entirely mitigated by my experiences), but I'd also like one back for the tactless and also aggressive way they responded, and dismissed my experience, which is far more than they have both personally and professionally. However, a friend who didn't get too involved with the argument, but agreed with the friend who did, thinks that I shouldn't get one back. AIBU to think that despite however I may have acted, they weren't exactly perfect and that there should be a bit of give and take in order to resolve this?

Sorry for the essay.

melezka i have never heard that 'advice' given out as a way of deterring a rapist. who gives that advice?

Journey - "I don't think you deserve an apology. Instead I think you should look at how you could of managed that conversation better. It is an emotional subject for you but not for them."

THEY ARE HER FRIENDS. They know that rape is a really really bad thing to happen to someone. Or perhaps they don't. Perhaps they think that people invite it on themselves. Either way, they should have respect for the OP's feelings.

JellyBeans - I really don't think you should apologise. Really, if these people can't see why they have upset you and apologise for it, then I don't think you should hang round with them.

So sorry I meant is it the case that the advice is to make themselves look less attractive - as it was "in my day" [old emoticon] if so I think that plays into the whole look available thing - but I don't know how much of this advice is based on research of any kind

Melezka I hope that's not advice, because it's bollocks. As has been said, rape isn't about how attractive someone is, and by giving that advice, people are basically enforcing the idea that it's about something other than bullying, violent control.

I believe the prosecution will try to point out the logic gap, but as has been seen with my friends' opinions and a lot of general consensus across the population, it seems to be accepted that a woman is 'more likely' to be raped if they're dressed in a 'slutty' manner and therefore the prosecution is probably ignored.

CurrySpice OP said she feels she needs to apologize. Not for her opinion. She was there, we were not, and she's not asking us whether she should.
To advise her to lose friends who may be supportive in many other life situations when you no nothing about them is ehhh...a somewhat rush advice.

Booy I can't remember where I got it from. It was in the days before the internet so it was printed in some way. It would have been in Australia.

But JellyBeans, if they were true friends wouldn't they be apologising to you? After all, they know your history and that you were clearly upset by their comments. If you apologise, they might take this as a sign that they were right. It's admirable that you want to be the bigger person out of respect for your long standing friendships, but where was their respect for you?

So it's not current any more - I am glad.

BiPolarPauline Sat 14-May-11 17:55:05
"JellyBeansOnToast

YABU as well as being a drama queen."

Fucking hell, BiPolarPauline you're telling a rape victim that she's a drama queen, seriously? Seriously? Wow, hope nothing like that ever happens to you, you might find people are as compassionate as you are.

JellyBeansOnToast YA so NBU! Knowing what happened to you, your "friends" should have been a hell of a lot more sensitive. Can you actually call them friends after what happened?

I want to apologise because I was rude. I will make it very clear that I stand by what I said, and that they upset me greatly. If they don't respect that, I will not be involved with them any more. Does that seem fair?

I think you have described a very possible outcome very clearly.

I hate arguments like this. It shows an enormous contempt for both men and women, by assuming that any man can be rendered uncontrollable by an exposed pair of legs or bosom, and that any woman who finds herself in the appalling position of being the victim of a sexual offence must take responsibility for the attack upon herslef. The rate of reporting rape in the UK and other countries is incredibly low because of attitudes like this, and even when they are investigated and result in charge, the conviction rate is far below the national average for all other offences. It makes me cringe to think of all the ignorant idiots who agree with the OPs friends sitting in juries during these trials, nodding sagely as each piece of the victim's clothing is held aloft for judgement. Perhaps they can see a way to eradicate rape entirely, maybe by insisting that all women dress in burka, for example (because presumably Muslim women don't get raped)?

Oh, unless you happen to be old or ugly, of course. Cos who'd want to rape them?

I understand you don't want to fall out with your friends, OP. But frankly I don't reckon you'll be losing much. If they can hold such ignorant views and express them when they know what you've been through then they don't sound like the sort of mates worth keeping.

Yes, that's fair! I'm glad you will stand by what you said. I find it sad when friends disappoint with their views, I "let go" of a long standing friendship recently when they aired some pretty abhorrent views on facebook. Some things just can't be ignored as a difference of opinion, though it's difficult to take that step when you've been friends with someone for a long time. I hope they realise they were wrong and give you the apology that you deserve.

Apologies don't sit well on high horses.

Either apolgise unreservedly or don't bother. You'll inevitably run into your main protagonist friend again at which point you can simply look a bit or choose to sashay past with your nose in the air.

C'mon, stuff happens, you're not gonna always agree with everyone you meet or change the ill-informed views of others more's the pity.

Say sorry as if you mean it and, if they don't have the grace to reciprocate, simply rise above it by agreeing to differ - and in future stay off this particular subject with this particular group of mates.

I do mean my apology It's not a high-horse thing, I want to apologise because I was out of order with my manner. I'd like to be treated as I treat others, and therefore would like one in return. It's an unreserved apology for my behaviour, not my opinion.

Why should I curb my views because they're unpopular?! That's how these stupid myths get perpetuated in the first place, because people feel too afraid to stand up for themselves and ignorant people out.

Sometimes a difference of opinion betrays a much bigger difference in world view that can't be overcome. I do agree it's really hard though - it's happened to me several times that I've had to let friendships go like this. It's rotten, and you do mourn.

Rape isnt about how attractive a woman is. Stranger rape is an opportunist crime, and the rapist goes out usually intent on raping a woman that day/night, he doesnt care who she is, or what she looks like. He is more likely to pick a woman who is vulnerable. Hence the reason clothes DO play a certain part in the psychology of a rapists mind. He wants quick access.

The reason prostitutes are more likely to be raped is because they are putting themselves into danger in the first place. If you were to talk to prostitutes, there are very few that have not been raped. There are also very very few, if any, that would go to the police to report it. Prostitutes dress in a provocative way to attract clients.

It does not take much of a psychologist to break down the train of thought that goes through the mind of a rapist. It is known that many serial (stranger) rapists do start off with raping prostitutes, because they know that there is much less chance of them being reported or caught. They then get bored with that, or take bigger risks and move on to women who are simply minding their own business and alone.

Even when/if caught, it is never known if the rape is a mans first offence, or one of many. :(

It may be a rare crime, but it happens. By reducing the risks of it happening to you, you are protecting your own safety. Surely that is common sense to women.

I would personally consider any area where there are no people around, and where someone could be hiding in wait for the offchance that any lone woman walks that way to be an area to avoid if I were alone

Really? What a terrifying place the world must seem. I spend a lot of time walking around 'scary' empty urban and suburban places, because they often provide excellent material for my photography. Frankly I've always found empty places less threatening than crowded ones.

You can only be murdered once though.

I do a lot of photography, and I agree, the type of place you describe sounds excellent for shots, I just wouldnt do it alone personally.

I dont consider my life to be restricted due to fear, I like to think I have a healthy respect for my own safety.

You can only be murdered once though.

What on earth do you mean?

Quite self explanatory I thought. You have so far not encountered any danger, you could be considered lucky if you regularly frequent areas that most people would consider a bit risky.

I would sincerely hope nothing ever does happen to you, but what I am trying to say is, if it did, it is too late to do anything about it, if you see what I mean.

An "it will never happen to me" attitude is sometimes dangerous. :(

niceday it wasn't advice. It was what I would feel. hence me saying "I would..."

And I (note the I) personally would find it hard to smile and socialise with people who had said such hurtful crass things to me. Without feeling the need to apologise to me. And who openly said they "didn't care" about my feelings or hurt. Persoanally (see - that's me again) I expect my friends to respect my views and feelings even if they don't share them

Like I said maybe that's just me

I agree, CurrySpice. I think it'll take a long time for the hurt to go away. But I have to at least give it a chance. I will probably spend a lot less time with them, and focus more on work and other friends. And they won't be my friends at all if they don't offer some semblance of an apology to me when I explain how they made me feel.

Squaekytoy, imho, rape of any kind (not just stranger rape) is rarely if ever "about how attractive a woman is". It's about power and violence. Nothing to do with sex at all - that is merely the language the rapist uses to assert his will on the woman. Again, merely ime and ho