To expect an apology?

[JellyBeansOnToast]

Back story to this one: Inspired by the recent 'Slutwalk' campaigns, one of my friends brought it up at the dinner table. I expressed my agreement with the shocking idea that women should not dress 'like sluts' in order to avoid being raped, as this puts some of the blame on the victim and therefore takes it away from the one true perpetrator, which is the man. Another friend pretty much exploded, and said that of course it was more likely a woman would be raped if she were wearing a short skirt. I objected extremely (and indeed probably too aggressively) strongly, and said that this was a horrible misapprehension about the motives of rape. I was raped myself, and the two friends arguing against me both knew this. I got myself into a bit of a tizz, and probably wasn't particularly pleasant in my arguing style. I referenced my five years of work with Rape Crisis, to which one retorted 'I don't care'. I had to leave the table, as I knew I was just going to get even more wound up, and I was very upset.

Now, I am aware I need to apologise to my friends for my own aggressive style (which I believe is somewhat but not entirely mitigated by my experiences), but I'd also like one back for the tactless and also aggressive way they responded, and dismissed my experience, which is far more than they have both personally and professionally. However, a friend who didn't get too involved with the argument, but agreed with the friend who did, thinks that I shouldn't get one back. AIBU to think that despite however I may have acted, they weren't exactly perfect and that there should be a bit of give and take in order to resolve this?

Sorry for the essay.

sorry jelly xx and to all the others that have been through this, i was 21 when i was raped and was also dressed in jeans and trainers,men who think its ok to rape a woman are sick ill fuckwits, it doesnt matter what you wear and what u do they are mentally fucked up, of course as they know they will get a pathetic sentence or let off completly because some judge thinks just because they wear makes a differnce doesnt help. how is it ok to get 15 years for drugs offences but 18 mths 4 rape?

I'm not sure I would apologise, you know.

There are times when you have to be able to argue dispassionately about things that really touch your life, in order to be able to persuade.

And there are times, when you are, say, with friends, where it is downright rude for people to assume you are going to be "dispassionate" about something that absolutely touches your life, has affected you, and maybe even made you the person you are.

There are some things where direct experience just does make a difference.

For example, I would not invite someone who, for example, lost friends/family in former Yugoslavia, to dinner, and expect them to argue, dispassionately, with a "friend" who a. had no links with Kosovo, other than the most general, and b. proposed some kind of "opposing" view, whatever that might be.

It would be bizarre and rude.

That's just a slightly "out there" example to get the point across.

Having said that, my opinion here is that a. friends who weren't involved but were present probably are better placed to comment/advise than we at mn.

b. you sound as though you are, actually, quite annoyed about the other friend's views, and that is possibly a reason why you would like an apology.

If you genuinely feel you aren't happy about how you put your views across, then apologise, and be clear about what you are apologising for. However, it is human nature that your friend will probably take it too mean she was "right" in her behaviour and opinion. People are a bit like that.

Forget about receiving an apology back. It might happen. It probably won't.

Personally, I think it sounds like a dinner party from hell. And, yes, I would be avoiding anyone who held views like that. Even if they put them across beautifully.

and jelly these people that said i dont care dont deserve to be ure friend xx

And m sympathy to all of you reading this who have been at the receiving end of violence and rape at the hands of others.

I truly wish you strength and better in the present and future.

And can I just say how sad and sorry I am to see so many women here who have been affected by this. It makes my blood boil. I know hugs aren't the done thing on MN but I would like to truly extend the hand of friendship and understanding to you all xx

That's really interesting, animula, and has given me food for thought. In fairness, the girl who introduced the topic was the one person present who wasn't aware of my circumstances. The other two, however, perhaps shouldn't have taken the bait but maybe only did so because I voiced my support for SlutWalks and they objected.

Yeah, I'm annoyed with them for their views, but I'm also annoyed at how they expressed them. That's why I want an apology. If I'm genuinely sorry, if they are at all compassionate then they should be too. I will state very clearly that whilst I don't think she is right and never will, the way I expressed this was wrong.

dont u dare apologise jelly u have done wrong of course you were passionate about something u had been through, what are u doing be friends with someone who is clearly an ignorant twat? was she/he at youre house/

Booy I wasn't attacked, I was assaulted - it was a grope and it really was directly related to what I was wearing. It doesn't mean I was responsible for it but it did make me think about the message I might be giving out unintentionally.

The fact is that we do dress to send out certain messages, which is why we dress differently for job interviews than when we're out on the pull. I don't think that implies any blame on the part of rape victims, or I certainly don't intend it to anyway.

My reference to gang/football colours was just in response to someone (OP I think) saying that no one advises men on what to wear - it's a lot less common and differently motivated but it does sometimes happen. I think statistically men are more likely to be attacked than women are to be raped but that could be a reporting issue also.

This discussion always makes me think of the traveller girls who dress and dance so provocatively but culturally don't have sex until after marriage - theoretically that's the kind of ideal, isn't it? but they seem to be universally denigrated for dressing/behaving that way. (I appreciate that there are other cultural factors at play in traveller society.)

Sorry for long rambling post - been thinking about this during Family Movie Night (aka DD makes us watch The Gruffalo for the 40th time).

It was a communal meal in the university facilities.

I personally would put assault in a different category than rape, in terms of motive. Someone can feel free to correct me though, and to be honest I'd say the vast majority of people who are groped have this happen to them because the perpetrator can, not because they are wearing a skirt. I've been felt up on the tube before whilst wearing a pair of tracksuit bottoms and a duffel coat.

Interesting point re motive though I suspect it varies from perpetrator to perpetrator.

I've also been groped when dowdily dressed on my way home from work or whatever, just because I happened to be sharing the street with some pissed up arseholes so I'm not saying that what I was wearing was a factor every time, but on this one particular occasion I was very provocatively dressed in a hot pink latex minidress and some charmer took it as an invitation to come over and tell me I was "asking for it" and touch me up. It really wouldn't have happened had I been wearing scummy sofa-lounging clothes for example. I don't feel responsible for his attitude that he could just help himself but it did make me more aware of (repeating myself, sorry) the message I gave out. I was wearing it semi-ironically, clearly didn't come across.

Jelly I certainly wouldn't apologise! I was quite when you said you were raped and that your friends knew about it. I think their opinion was wrong on so many levels but to have this argument with someone who has been through what you have??

I completely agree with animula - it's not like arguing about a vague abstract thing but about a personal thing with someone and in your case kind of implying that you personally were somehow at fault for what happened to you. I don't care how aggressive you became - how did they expect you not to?

This whole discussion about a woman's clothes when she was raped is abhorrent as it dilutes the violence of what the man has done. I remember crying when I read about a college student in the US who had to hold up her knickers (thong) in the court as if it played any role in her rape. There was also that case in Italy of a young woman whose rapist walked free (I think initially) because the judge felt that her jeans were so tight that he couldn't have got them off her without her help. The whole thing is just so

Dita, it wouldn't have happened if you weren't in the company of a sexual assaulter. That you were unlucky enough to have had close encounters with two of them whilst wearing completely different outfits should show you that, no?

As for motive, I've been reading some research recently that found that sexual perpetrators have a higher than average rate of anger in general and towards women in particular. They are also very likely to be in consenting sexual relationships at the time of the offence, which blows the sexual outlet theory out of the water.

This is a really interesting paper on rape myths but it could be very triggering, so approach with caution.

I am sorry they did that to you. Men really need to stop doing this shit. Who the fuck do they think they are?

I remember being groped, several times, in my school uniform.

I, personally, think that if there were anything at all in the idea that "certain clothes send out certain messages" the fault would still lie with the person who a. interprets certain items of clothing in a certain way and then b. bizarrely, chooses the "interpretation" to be permission to sexually assault/rape another human being. That is, to physically assault them.

Physical assault, sexual assault, is just that. There is language for asking permission. There are forms of communication that don't rest with clothing. It's nonsensical to give the "clothing" thing any time of day at all.

Many, many years ago I was shopping, on my own, and a man flashed me, on a train, and then followed me - though not through the ticket barriers. I walked straight to the police station and reported it.

The policeman taking my statement told me straight out that this flasher had been given the wrong idea by my short skirt. I was a feminist and was bloody outraged. We had a rather "interesting" conversation, until another policeman came in, said that he'd checked, and there were other reports of a flasher/follower. Eventually a woman police officer came and took my statement. She was miles better.

I always tell myself that (initial) response would be so unlikely to happen today. I'm a teeny bit alarmed by some of the views on this thread.

I do think that there continues to be a hideous problem with regard to male violence towards women, and until the fact that it is a problem with (some) men, and not anything to do with women being where they shouldn't be, acting in ways they shouldn't, wearing what they shouldn't, we;re not dealing with this problem properly.

Presumably there is a high rate of rape in prostitution because by the very nature of it women are alone, unobserved, in isolated places, after dark with men they know nothing about, and arguably men who have ittle respect fo women and see them as commodities to be bought or taken. And because rape is a hate crime and prostitutes have the misfortune to be the brunt of everyone's hatred and misogyny.
Not because they wear short skirts.

I can never believe that women can ever blame another woman in any way for their being raped or sexually assaulted. I would have been as angry as the OP in similar circumstances.

As far as I am concerned the only one at fault in a rape is the perpetrator and I can feel my own rage rising even as I type this. I have never been raped but I was sexually assaulted as a child by a teacher and this has informed my reaction to the question of women's vulnerability since I have been old enough to read and discuss the blame put onto women by every section of society.

Any woman who is prepared to consider that rapists are encouraged in any way should be ashamed of themselves.

there's a big big difference between being more vunerable because of the impracticalities of your clothing and a rapist being more likely to choose a victim because their clothing is 'suggestive'. I find it shocking that people can't see the difference.

A rapist will rape whoever they can rape and in no way should a woman ever be blamed for that rape just becuase her skirt was short or her heels were high, or for any reason for that matter.

I'm always really surprised when I hear/read other women towing this line - I find it really wrong that we have somehow managed to incorporate this disgusting excuse for violence to such an extent that it is not seen as extraordinary to hold this view.

Theres (unfortunately) plenty of accounts of rape where the victim's trousers have been pulled down. And most women, at some stage, wear short skirts, flashy clothes, etc.. Goodness, some women even go out running in shorts and wear summer dresses.

You don't have nice friends. I couldn't be friends with people so intolerant. It was that first deeply offensive comment that upset you. I wouldn't apologise and would be proud of standing my ground.

I can't understand why anyone can believe it. It takes two seconds to demolish any argument linking clothes/behaviour/appearance and rape. It's the fact that it's clearly upheld in positions of power, that ostensibly privilege things like logic, that really bewilders me.

Why would you offer an apology for what you said? I can understand you would apologise for maybe how you said it but not what you said.

I've said several times that I will be standing by my opinion, but apologising for the way I put it across. I will be offering to explain rationally why I think what I think, with the help of several studies (thank you for that link, AyeRobot) and then I will be leaving it at that. They have lost a fair proportion of my respect. Perhaps it didn't occur to them to take into account my personal experience, but other friends have said that they wouldn't ever purport to know more than me or disagree with me given my personal and professional knowledge.

duellingfanjo: excellent point about the practicalities of clothes vs suggestiveness.

All the arguments that a woman should dress more modestly when out and about in the evenings bring with them the implication that it is less wrong to rape a prostitute. It would be equally as wrong to rape a prostitute dressed for work as any other woman, including one of the tweeds and twin set brigade. When I lived in London before I was married I would often find myself on my way back from a party on the tube late at night. I didn't feel that it was quite right to have to deliberately cover up to feel safe on the last bit of my walk home, so I made a point of not doing so - I felt oppressed if I had to think about taking a raincoat or something similar with me.

I think perhaps some woman may blame another woman being raped onhow she was dressed because it makes them more secure that it will never happen to them because they don't dress that way.

Having said that I think the way some women dress could give the wrong impression in some cases of 'date rape' but before I get flamed the word no should always mean no even if the woman is wearing a short skirt and no pants! You do see pictures of young girls passed out in town with no pants on and skirts up showing everything but there is something fundamentally wrong with a man who would take advantage of that situation.

I am sorry you have been upset by the conversation OP and hope the views here (including my own) don't add to this upset.

Hmm well I apologised via an email, and said I was happy to discuss my reasoning with her calmly if she wished. I also said she'd upset me with her dismissal of my work, and my personal experience.

I received thanks for my apology, and that she didn't hold her views 'too strongly' so it might be something she'd be willing to change, but she'd rather do it on her own. No apology from her. Quite odd really.

She sounds like a stupid cow to me. I'm sorry that people have acted like this round you.