To expect an apology?

[JellyBeansOnToast]

Back story to this one: Inspired by the recent 'Slutwalk' campaigns, one of my friends brought it up at the dinner table. I expressed my agreement with the shocking idea that women should not dress 'like sluts' in order to avoid being raped, as this puts some of the blame on the victim and therefore takes it away from the one true perpetrator, which is the man. Another friend pretty much exploded, and said that of course it was more likely a woman would be raped if she were wearing a short skirt. I objected extremely (and indeed probably too aggressively) strongly, and said that this was a horrible misapprehension about the motives of rape. I was raped myself, and the two friends arguing against me both knew this. I got myself into a bit of a tizz, and probably wasn't particularly pleasant in my arguing style. I referenced my five years of work with Rape Crisis, to which one retorted 'I don't care'. I had to leave the table, as I knew I was just going to get even more wound up, and I was very upset.

Now, I am aware I need to apologise to my friends for my own aggressive style (which I believe is somewhat but not entirely mitigated by my experiences), but I'd also like one back for the tactless and also aggressive way they responded, and dismissed my experience, which is far more than they have both personally and professionally. However, a friend who didn't get too involved with the argument, but agreed with the friend who did, thinks that I shouldn't get one back. AIBU to think that despite however I may have acted, they weren't exactly perfect and that there should be a bit of give and take in order to resolve this?

Sorry for the essay.

You are the bigger and better person jelly (and than me tbh I'd still be fuming ) Hold on to that and well done! xx

I think people can only apologise for the way that they said something, not for an opinion they hold, whether or not we might agree with it or not.
However, you might need to reiterate first that you felt your experience was being dismissed, as in the heat of it all, this might not have come across?

I probably do need to say that whilst I was happy to tender an apology for my manner, I think given the personal circumstances and how dreadful I felt for days, I would like an acknowledgment or apology for that.

Part of me just wants to leave it be though. I'm knackered by the whole thing. I know it's wrong to lie down and take it, and it might eat away at me because I didn't get any kind of acknowledgment and have basically just let someone have a horrible view and then apologised to them for it. Argh.

Oh Jelly. Try to remember you didn't apologise for their horrible views;you apologised for your manner of delivery. You're done now. You have acted according to your beliefs about what's right, and that in no way implies acceptance of your "friend's" views. Do you have any strategies for getting to a point of letting this go now? X

there are a couple of points to this

1. you should apologise
2. of course pragmatically women should be aware of their own safety
3. number 2 does not mean that rape is invited.
4. I think to argue that lust isn't involved is wrong. It might not always be the case, it also certainly goes hand in hand with control and power. If a man lusts after a woman, this does not give him the right to rape her.

Lust is not a motive for rape. Categorically. Rape is not about sex. It is not about lust. Please, please do not purport this hideously damaging view, I beg of you.

I apologised for my manner. I will never, ever stop believing what I believe. It is true, and it is right. Look on any rape website for the motives behind rape.

Jelly, did you really think this was ever going to go any differently? The sort of 'friend' who could hold such views is only ever going to feel vindicated by getting an apology. They probably don't get the subtlety of you apologising for the manner of delivery rather than the content of your views. They just hear 'sorry' and then stop listening.

Truthfully, I think this friendship has run its course. You are never going to forget what they think, or the fact that they were not gracious enough to apologise for their own behaviour wrt the initial argument. I think this will sour future contact.

For me, the way to move forward would be to find better friends.

Maybe next time (if this sort of thing ever happens again), don't apologise.

JBOT - motives for rape are complex. I practiced as a defence solicitor for 23 years and represented many men facing charges of rape. They varied from a man who violently raped a young woman in a public toilet and then went on to rape and murder another to allegations of date rape that did not get beyond CPS review. In the former I think it was fairly clear that a personality disorder was the main factor in play. In the latter lust was certainly a factor in what happened. In stranger rape the vulnerability of the victim seems to be possibly a deciding factor - in male and female victim situations.