Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To expect an apology?

133 replies

JellyBeansOnToast · 14/05/2011 17:42

Back story to this one: Inspired by the recent 'Slutwalk' campaigns, one of my friends brought it up at the dinner table. I expressed my agreement with the shocking idea that women should not dress 'like sluts' in order to avoid being raped, as this puts some of the blame on the victim and therefore takes it away from the one true perpetrator, which is the man. Another friend pretty much exploded, and said that of course it was more likely a woman would be raped if she were wearing a short skirt. I objected extremely (and indeed probably too aggressively) strongly, and said that this was a horrible misapprehension about the motives of rape. I was raped myself, and the two friends arguing against me both knew this. I got myself into a bit of a tizz, and probably wasn't particularly pleasant in my arguing style. I referenced my five years of work with Rape Crisis, to which one retorted 'I don't care'. I had to leave the table, as I knew I was just going to get even more wound up, and I was very upset.

Now, I am aware I need to apologise to my friends for my own aggressive style (which I believe is somewhat but not entirely mitigated by my experiences), but I'd also like one back for the tactless and also aggressive way they responded, and dismissed my experience, which is far more than they have both personally and professionally. However, a friend who didn't get too involved with the argument, but agreed with the friend who did, thinks that I shouldn't get one back. AIBU to think that despite however I may have acted, they weren't exactly perfect and that there should be a bit of give and take in order to resolve this?

Sorry for the essay.

OP posts:
fedupofnamechanging · 14/05/2011 18:14

squeakytoy, obviously the world is not full of nice people and you never know who you will come across, so it is sensible to take care. That doesn't mean that a woman loses her right to do whatever she wants and if she does choose to walk home on her own in a dodgy area, that still doesn't make it in any way her fault if some evil bastard attacks her.

And no, I wouldn't allow my 3 year old out, because a 3 year old wouldn't be safe out alone. Again that doesn't mean that someone has a right to abduct a child if a parent did let them out.

People are only responsible for what they do, not what other people do.

Punkatheart · 14/05/2011 18:16

Rape is also only partly about sex. It is often also about fear, aggression, control and power. A man might well pick a woman who looks young and innocent, rather than a confident woman in short skirt and high heels. The psychology of rape is complex.

But one aspect is simple: MEN DO NOT NEED TO HAVE FORCED SEX. They are not animals who cannot control their impulses. It is time that the culpability was placed firmly back where it belongs, instead of society assuming that men are uncontrollable beasts.

squeakytoy · 14/05/2011 18:17

dressing in a mini skirt and heels is not neglecting your own personal safety

It is if you have to walk home on your own, or even get in a cab on our own... ever tried to run in skirt and stilettoes? it aint easy!

But safety in numbers is always the number one precaution. That is the one thing that girls need drumming into them. Stay with your mates, no matter what.

Mishy1234 · 14/05/2011 18:18

I wonder if it's more likely to do with the rapist looking for an 'easy target' and in some cases this is someone who is coming home from a night out (hence dressed up), had a bit to drink (understandably) and is maybe due to a lack of judgement in the wrong place at the wrong time (maybe a dodgy shortcut they wouldn't normally take).

I haven't been raped, but a group of guys did once try to force me into their car as I walked home. As it happens, a group of friends were fairly close behind me (I hadn't been out with them) and intervened. I was wearing jeans and trainers, so not provocatively dressed. I just think they saw an opportunity and tried to take it.

beesimo · 14/05/2011 18:19

I was not referring to lasses in generally I was referring to my DDs I know lasses do get raped by people they know. My DDs are very protected here I was talking about how we are and the balance between when you can let yourself go among friends and being very very wary in strange places.

squeakytoy · 14/05/2011 18:20

That doesn't mean that a woman loses her right to do whatever she wants and if she does choose to walk home on her own in a dodgy area, that still doesn't make it in any way her fault if some evil bastard attacks her

Karma, I KNOW it doesnt mean it is her fault, of course it isnt. But the sensible choice would be not to put yourself at risk in the first place. An evil bastard can only attack in those situations if someone is (in my opinion) irresponsible enough to risk that walk. I wouldnt do it, nor would I ever encourage my stepdaughter to do it either.

Original poster
JellyBeansOnToast · 14/05/2011 18:20

What belledame said. If we perpetuate the myth that women somehow bear responsibility by acting in a 'flirty' manner or wearing 'slutty' clothes, then rapists will continue to use this defence in court and juries will continue to acquit them on the grounds that the woman must have surely expected some sort of repercussions for wearing what she wanted.

There's being sensible and then there's just putting the onus on the woman to prevent her rape, rather than reiterating the fact to men that No Means No, under any circumstance.

OP posts:
BooyHoo · 14/05/2011 18:21

squeaky, talking about clothes alone here. heels and a skirt does not make you responsible in the slightest for anyone forcing themselves on you. many women wear heels to work. are they neglecting their personal safety? are men who wear ties inviting people to strangle them?

Original poster
JellyBeansOnToast · 14/05/2011 18:22

Oh and I will never apologise for my beliefs, but I will apologise for the manner in which I said it. Likewise, I expect them to apologise for their manner but if they continue to believe what they currently do, that's their choice. I sat down with one friend and explained very calmly, using my own experience and the facts, why I thought she might be misinformed. She came away revising her opinion, which was fantastic, but I wouldn't expect the same result with everyone.

OP posts:
squeakytoy · 14/05/2011 18:23

It doesnt make you responsible Booy, it does make you more vulnerable in a bad situation and less able to escape.

Women wearing heels to work in the daytime, out in public with other commuters are in less danger, but if a woman was working late, walking home on her own in the dark on a deserted road, then yes, she should think about her footwear and her personal safety.

schmee · 14/05/2011 18:24

YADNBU - they should apologise to you and I wouldn't speak to them again until they did. How dare they ignore your experience in that way, or dismiss the work you did with Rape Crisis? Really angry on your behalf and would like to tell them f88k off for you.

Even if you were wrong about premise behind SlutWalk (which I strongly believe you are NOT), they should be supporting you and respecting your viewpoint.

YusMilady · 14/05/2011 18:29

Well I for one am completely careless of my 'personal safety' - always have been. Walk alone after dark, including when I'm abroad in areas I don't know, wear what the hell I like, speak to who I like, get as drunk as I like.

Because the logical extension of the 'personal safety' superstition is that women cower indoors. Where they are liable to be raped by their partners anyway.

BooyHoo · 14/05/2011 18:29

rapists make people vulnerable. being in heels and a skirt does not make you vulnerable. the rapist has to exist for the risk to exist.

Punkatheart · 14/05/2011 18:33

I have not been raped. But I have been molested. I was 13, dressed in school uniform. I was a straggly haired NHS glasses geeky sort of child. Not provocative. It should make no odds how I was dressed.

I have to be honest, I now like to wear shoes in which I can run. But I would never make judgements about someone in towering heels. I got off the train with a girl in London recently who was over six foot tall, wearing skin tight leather trousers, red jacket and the hugest heels I have ever seen. She looked beautiful, glamorous and empowered. Women have a right to dress how they bloody well want.

You need an apology. If anyone could understand the motives and background of rape, it is you.

beckibicker · 14/05/2011 18:36

if i got out of my head on drink/drugs, had no idea where i was or who i was going with, ended up in a park, passed out and got robbed , had all my money, phone, etc taken away, i am sure there is no one person alive who would say I had been reckless, stupid, careless, neglectful, what have you.

Vallhala · 14/05/2011 18:36

I don't think that for one moment you owe ANYONE an apology.

They fucking well owe YOU one though.

I'm disgusted that some women should think as your "friend" does and so very sorry that you've had to suffer such an awful thing as rape.

You don't have to apologise for the manner in which you spoke... these women KNEW what you'd been through and still they insulted you and were unfeeling about your experience. Tell them only that they're bloody lucky they didn't say that crap in front of me... I'd have burnt their ears with my fury.

squeakytoy · 14/05/2011 18:38

but rapists DO exist, no matter how much everyone else wishes they didnt, and they dont walk around with a tattoo on their forehead advertising the fact (although this would be a great idea if I were in charge! :) )

YusMilady, I dont cower indoors, but I do value my own personal safety and would not knowingly put myself at risk.

Perhaps my cautious stance comes from living in a small town where a middle aged woman was raped and murdered in a public place, early evening but nobody around. It was quite a few years before DNA caught the murderer.

Journey · 14/05/2011 18:39

You admit yourself that you objected extremely strongly and were aggressive in your approach. This isn't the way to win an agruement or to get people to understand your viewpoint. If you're agressive it is likely the other person will get defensive which is what happened.

I don't think you deserve an apology. Instead I think you should look at how you could of managed that conversation better. It is an emotional subject for you but not for them. There is no way they are going to understand where you're coming from since they haven't been raped themselves, however, perhaps a more diplomatic response might have made them understand things better than an aggressive approach. I don't know anyone who likes being spoken to aggressively.

Original poster
JellyBeansOnToast · 14/05/2011 18:39

Funny how no one says how men should dress. No one says a man is more likely to get attacked if he wears a tight shirt or hangs out late at night or get drunk. But men get raped too. Their actions or choices aren't blamed. No one says 'oh, he was wearing those skinny jeans - that other man must have been so turned on by the provocative outfit that that's why he raped him'.

OP posts:
YusMilady · 14/05/2011 18:40

Time for new friends OP - seriously. Ones who are a bit more fucking clued up.

Original poster
JellyBeansOnToast · 14/05/2011 18:42

I have looked at how I could manage it better, Journey, I left the table, calmed down and then spoke to a friend who was present during the argument and initially disagreed with me in a reasonable and calm manner. I agree that arguing heatedly is never productive, but it was a snap response to a shocking statement. I'm not proud of myself.

However, given that they know my experiences, I believe that if I offer an apology, they could offer one back. They reacted in the same way that I did, and were rude too. Tit for tat.

OP posts:
YusMilady · 14/05/2011 18:42

But squeakytoy that's the point, isn't it? Your 'middle aged woman' wasn't putting herself in danger. The rapist was putting her in danger.

DitaVonCheese · 14/05/2011 18:42

Apologies if I'm putting words in his/her mouth but I read greenlime's post to mean that someone dressed in a short skirt and high heels is more likely to get raped just from a purely practical point of view (harder to run/easier access) rather than because they were dressed sexily, which does make a certain amount of sense to me.

I have been sexually assaulted because of what I was wearing and sexually assaulted just because I happened to be walking down the street.

DitaVonCheese · 14/05/2011 18:44

Men are sometimes more likely to be attacked for wearing certain gang colours or football team shirts, for example, no?

BooyHoo · 14/05/2011 18:45

i agree squeaky, tattoos on the head of convicted rapists would be and excellent idea!!