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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be dismayed at the increasing number of pregnant women I see smoking

305 replies

likingthespring · 13/05/2011 15:37

I used to notice the odd one or two but I've seen loads recently. Maybe it's not that there's more women smoking in pregnancy but just more not giving a shit what people think.

OP posts:
microserf · 14/05/2011 14:09

i hate seeing it and i judge anyone who does it - in the way i explain below.

yes, people have free will and make their own choices about their bodies and their babies. some people make bad choices. in my view, smoking while pregnant is a really bad choice.

some of the arguments on this thread are specious - the car fumes argument in particular is just rubbish. just need a group of people to feel superior to? FFS, that's ridiculous. i don't feel superior to women who smoke when they are pregnant. we are all mothers, or mothers to be. i do think however that they've made a very bad decision, and i hope somewhere their midwife is trying to get them the support they need to stop smoking and give their baby the best chance at being healthy.

i think it's sad this thread is all about judging the people who think smoking while pregnant isn't a great idea as "superior". when did everything get so morally relative that it's THESE people in the wrong?

TheCowardlyLion · 14/05/2011 14:15

microserf - it seems to me - and this thread is a perfect example of it - that society is sliding into a state of moral apathy where the majority seem to believe that as long as no-one infringes on anyone else's so-called rights (and for 'rights', read sense of entitlement to do whatever the hell they choose), all is well. Any attempt to require people to take responsibility for their own behaviour, or for society/the community around them, is seen as judging - now the only deadly sin, having replaced the previous seven. Hmm

DoMeDon · 14/05/2011 14:20

Totally agree with Cowardly - good post

microserf · 14/05/2011 18:09

Cowardly, you put it very succinctly. I completely agree.

TheBlindAssassin · 15/05/2011 00:29

Can I just say that it is my personal opinion that mothers who smoke whilst pregnant should forcefully have their babies removed from their care as soon as they are born? By showing no regard for their child's health, they will always be terrible mothers. Whether or not they go on to nurture their child in other ways for many many years, by making that one decision not to give up smoking, they do not deserve to have their children ... How is it fair that other women who have never smoked in pregnancy have to go through the trauma of miscarriages, still-births, babies with low-birth weight or any other number of congenital issues? These tragedies should be happening to those who smoke through pregnancy instead - after all, it's the least they deserve!

Coming very late into this debate, I just wanted to point out that the above would apparently reflect some of the extreme visceral hateful opinions on this thread towards women you do not know/women you do know but have no right to judge in such a manner. Why not just copy and paste it so people can see you for who you are as supposed to someone who cares about strangers' children being affected by smoking?

I have yet to see a political party in the UK that would outlaw cigarettes or outlaw the selling of cigarettes to pregnant women. Until they do that, whether you like it or not, that mother-to-be you see smoking has every right to do so, regardless of what a shitty thing you might consider it to be.

bupcakesandcunting · 15/05/2011 00:44

Cow me.

I saw someone getting chewed out for Fruit Shooting the other day. On the MN scale of decent parenting choices, giving a child a Fruit Shoot ranks as a worse choice than fagging whilst pregnant. This place makes my brain ache sometimes.

Tortington · 15/05/2011 00:46

what if you make a bong from a fruit shoot bottle?

bupcakesandcunting · 15/05/2011 00:50

If you can make an effective bong from a tiny Fruit Shoot bottle, I will worship at your altar forever and ever amen.

Nanny0gg · 15/05/2011 01:07

TheBlindAssassin "How is it fair that other women who have never smoked in pregnancy have to go through the trauma of miscarriages, still-births, babies with low-birth weight or any other number of congenital issues? These tragedies should be happening to those who smoke through pregnancy instead - after all, it's the least they deserve!"

I know what you are trying to say, and I see your point, but wishing these things on the mother also wishes them on the child, and I don't think you meant that?

bupcakesandcunting · 15/05/2011 01:09

"These tragedies should be happening to those who smoke through pregnancy instead - after all, it's the least they deserve!"

Cripes. I feel pretty strongly about smoking whilst pregnant but that's very harsh.

LDNmummy · 15/05/2011 01:12

TheCowardlyLion Sat 14-May-11 14:15:23
"microserf - it seems to me - and this thread is a perfect example of it - that society is sliding into a state of moral apathy where the majority seem to believe that as long as no-one infringes on anyone else's so-called rights (and for 'rights', read sense of entitlement to do whatever the hell they choose), all is well. Any attempt to require people to take responsibility for their own behaviour, or for society/the community around them, is seen as judging - now the only deadly sin, having replaced the previous seven."

Brilliantly put!

And to those using the car fumes argument, smoking has been proven to be more harmful than car fumes. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3590578.stm

If you are going to do something harmful to yourself and those around you, at least educate yourselves on it.

ohmyfucksy · 15/05/2011 01:39

Smoking is stupid anyway. No matter what you tell yourself or what anyone tells you, it makes you smell and look rough as fuck once you've been doing it a few years. Plus the whole cancer thing. Where's the up side?

Doing it when you're pregnant - well, it's up to you. But I don't know why people like that even bothered getting pregnant.

TheBlindAssassin · 15/05/2011 04:59

Nanny0gg, what I was trying to say is that people don't necessarily understand the ramifications of the extreme viewpoints that they hold. By saying or implying that a pregnant woman who smokes somehow deserves to have health issues with their child, some of the posters on here do not realise that by wishing that on the mother, they ARE, wittingly or not, wishing that on the child.

And LDNmummy, I would not simply post a link to a BBC article about a research paper without reading the research paper itself. I should warn you that the following is a long [and most likely, boring] post, but I truly feel it is necessary to debunk this myth that cigarette smoke is more harmful to you than car exhaust fumes. It isn't - it's just that car exhaust, boiler fumes, industrial (manufacturing, construction and even recycling plant) fumes are simply considered more acceptable/necessary. It is MUCH harder to denigrate a majority (to which most people, even the criticisers, belong) than a minority as it would require a complete turn-around in the comfort with which those people live their lives in ignorance.

The fine particulates referred to in the BBC article are said to be dangerous because they are more easily absorbed and settle into the lungs. Most things that give off visible particulate matter such as smoke (cigarettes, car exhausts, log fires, boilers etc) will, more often than not, also produce fine particulate matter.

What the actual research article by Dr Giovanni and his team fails to address are:

  • why 3 cigarettes were used to 1 diesel engine (what is the equivalence? there may be one, but the article doesn't state that)

  • why it ignores the fact that different samples of the diesel fuel can produce wildly varying fine particulate readings

  • why the precise atmospheric mixture in the garage before the engine was started varies even with no visible variables introduced

  • whether the fact that the doors were left open for four hours afterwards reliably meant that all fine particulates produced by the diesel engine had successfully dispersed (even with the graph used, this is VERY hard to establish, hence why those who take samples of fine particulates should always use a wide margin of error) - it simply says that the garage had "adequate air exchange",

  • the previous use of the car/diesel engine (which get less effective the more/longer they are used) - the article just states that "a turbo diesel common rail 2.0 liters Ford Mondeo, year 2002, that complied with the Euro3 gas exhaust standards" was used (so, if it is brand new, we can consider that it is sure to be more effective than one that's been used for 2 years)

  • how the diesel engine used compares to other diesel engines by different car manufacturers

  • the fact that the diesel engine was in a car which would have a cooling fan circulating the air (as compared to the lack of circulation when the cigarettes were burning), thereby having a scrubbing effect on the fine particulates

  • the fact that the diesel engine/car was idling, not moving (if the car was actually running/moving, more fine particulate matter would have been produced)

  • the fact that they state as a concluding factor that the experiment was carried out in a room "with a volume similar to that encountered in many offices and homes" (but fail to mention the fact that in such rooms, we have WAY more ventilation than was provided for in the experiment)

etc,

I would suggest that you read the original paper: Particulate matter from tobacco versus diesel car exhaust: an educational perspective by Dr Giovanni [et al] (you should be able to get it on here if you have an Athens password; if not, it is freely available at this link). Just for those reasons I listed above, you cannot (or rather, should not) take it at face value that cigarette smoke gives off more fine particulate matter than diesel fumes.

I can say this with reliability though - a running car (be that diesel or petrol) will ALWAYS produce more fine particulates than a burning cigarette in isolation. It is a shame that the test(s) did not involve a person sitting in the same room - that may have proven a bit more conclusive on the harmful effects on the human body. The only reference made to the article regarding human testing is a previous experiment by a different team (Salvi S et al) using [again, an idling] older less effective diesel engine (but no cigarette smoke comparison), the exhaust of which they DILUTED with 90% air (were you to run the same experiment and dilute cigarette smoke with 90% air, it is highly doubtful that they would have observed the same level of "marked systemic and pulmonary inflammatory response" as they did with the diesel car).

Regardless of Dr Giovanni's article, diesel fumes produce the same carcinogenic matter (such as benzene, arsenic, cadmium) plus carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide and hydrocarbons as can be found in cigarettes, but in higher quantities. Petrol fumes are considered even worse (though they are also more likely to produce larger particulates which are harder for the lungs to absorb).

The BBC article ignores the fact that the vast majority of people who drive in the UK use petrol-fueled cars which, taken overall, are more dangerous to us than diesel-fueled cars, environmentally and health-wise (although the pollution from diesel engines is of particular concern as the small particulates or ultra fine particles which tend to be emitted by diesel engines, can be inhaled further down into the lungs than the larger particles).

Petrol and diesel fumes simply cannot be compared like for like against cigarette smoke/fumes as both the former are always much more dangerous to you short-term and long-term than the latter. A smoker on 20 a day that lives in a city like London will be subjected to much more fine particulate matter, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and carcinogens simply from the traffic exhaust fumes they ingest on a daily basis.

So, LDNmummy, if you are going to shrug off the effects of traffic exhaust, boilers, waste incinerators, industrial processes (manufacturing, construction etc) on your health as compared to smoking, be that active or passive smoking, then at least educate yourself about it.

AlpinePony · 15/05/2011 07:12

cowardlylion I agree with your post very much, however, whilst I do judge (of course I judge, from women who wear brown and black in combination, to those who drink every day etc., etc.) - and am going to judge someone who smokes whilst pregnant, but at the same time I still think it's her choice and I'd not want legislation preventing a woman making choices for herself however crappy they might be and might of course have real consequences.

Understanding of cause and effect should be right up there with your "let's judge" imo!

I read somewhere on mn last week about a woman who lives somewhere in the Mid-West USA (IIRC) who said that they are reluctant to serve alcohol to anyone who is considered "pre-pregnant" - that is, any woman of child-bearing age! Shock

K999 · 15/05/2011 10:49

I can see how forceably removing children from their mothers straight after birth would be a solution... Hmm

TheCowardlyLion · 15/05/2011 17:16

AlpinePony - normally, I would agree with you about choice but it's not just herself she's choosing to harm, is it? Letting someone choose the increased likelihood of a long, slow painful death for themselves is one thing, but what if that person says 'Oh, and I'd like to choose that Person X shares my fate too'? Where's Person X's right to choose?

sausagesandmarmelade · 15/05/2011 17:26

absolutely agree with all your posts Cowardly

BiPolarPauline · 15/05/2011 17:53

Yep, no doubt i'll be flamed for this. I find the person irresponsible enough to do this tends to fall into the same category.

Unmarried

Uneducated

No faith

No support from Father of child, if in deed she knows.

Lives in a council house

On benefits

No aspirations

A sad portrait of modern Britain, i'm afraid.

sausagesandmarmelade · 15/05/2011 17:56

oooohhhh dear.........

CONTROVERSIAL bipolar...

be prepared for the back lash!

K999 · 15/05/2011 17:57

No sweeping generalisations then...

I have been with DP for 8 years, have a law degree, do not live in a council house, have never been on benefits, and have lots of aspirations....Hmm

HaughtyChuckle · 15/05/2011 17:58

Unmarried

Uneducated

No faith

No support from Father of child, if in deed she knows.

Lives in a council house

On benefits

No aspirations

A sad portrait of modern Britain, i'm afraid.

I fell preg when I was a teen unmarried, I stopped the day I found out and never drank alchohol , I know you're generalsing but still I knew far more 'mature' mothers who smoked than young ones.

usualsuspect · 15/05/2011 18:01

Unmarried

Uneducated

No faith

No support from Father of child, if in deed she knows.

Lives in a council house

On benefits

No aspirations

A sad portrait of modern Britain, i'm afraid.

K999 · 15/05/2011 18:23

One of my aspirations is to be non-judgemental, if I can at all help it.....

usualsuspect · 15/05/2011 18:27

Smoking in pregnancy was a lot more common back in the day ...so quite how its a sad portrait of modern Britain is beyond me

K999 · 15/05/2011 19:24

Agree UsualSuspect. My mum smoked during both her pregnancies and my nana smoked through all 5 of hers. Of course, times have changed and it is advisable not to smoke, but for some it's too hard to totally stop. It was for me but I did cut down...but I don't think for one minute that my DDs should have been removed from me as soon as they were born!!!