to think that basic social skills have for the most part gone out the window

[ohboob]

I recently joined a craft group. I've been about 5/6 times. Everyone is very nice and friendly. They are all intelligent, university educated, mostly married, kind people. And yet every single time I go I get very brief hello's from all of them but no one ever says 'how are you' or asks the new people in the group their names or introduces themselves. I've seen 3 people start coming since I joined and all have had the same reaction. I find it so rude. They literally just sit there. My first week another new person joined and despite the fact that it was my first evening I was the only person to welcome her and ask her how she was, and how long she had been doing her craft for, where she was from, etc. etc.

Surely that is just basic manners (and social etiquette) to say hello and introduce yourself, so that the new person feels welcome? And then to ask them a bit about themselves and maybe tell them what they are working on. There are anywhere from 5 people in the group to 15 each week.

I took a friend with my last night who was really interested in joining and she had the same reaction. People looked up and said a brief hello and then just carried on working and chatting amongst themselves. It takes place in a pub and the whole point of the group is supposed to be the social side. My friend said that if she had turned up by herself she wouldn't return because it felt so unwelcoming. The very first week I joined it was the same and if I wasn't chatty and comfortable with just jumping in and making conversation I could have easily sat there all evening with no one talking to me at all and without knowing a single name of anyone there.

The funny thing is that if I make conversation and ask people how they are they start chatting and all are very friendly, so it boggles me as to why they are so rude initially. Do we just not learn manners anymore? I've come across this problem a lot with my generation (late twenties, early thirties) and it is just not how I was brought up. Very few people seem to have the basic social skills. Ironically one of the women last night was saying that she was terrified when she first joined because it's daunting walking into a group of strangers (as I found it when I joined) but she still wasn't welcoming to my friend who was in the same position as she had once been in. Why do people not connect that if they have found it hard, then others will and they need to make the effort to smile and say hello.

Gah! This is really bugging me. I don't know if it is shyness or rudeness.

But it isn't about badgering people to talk, it's about saying basic hello's and being welcoming. After that if someone wanted to get on with their crafts quietly I wouldn't object to that (as long as other people wanted to chat)

Boffin it makes me too. I just want to make some friends. And have a nice evening out where people are friendly. I don't get why it has to be such hard work.

Ohboob, I do wonder if you would be better off with a drama group tbh. Being sociable has to be built into it all. Or better known amateur choirs sometimes are pretty sociable, with drinks afterwards down the pub and so on.

I read somewhere that shyness (unrelated to any medical condition) is a type of selfishness, in that the shy person is thinking only about themselves and how they feel and react, and not how they make other people feel...

I was painfully shy when I first went to university. But I learned and am now quite sociable. It was be a bit of a poor show on my part if I was still as shy as when I was 18. Thats a good quote from Pride and Prejudice Ciske.

Dutch people have something called a "kring" which is a group of friends from childhood/early adulthood but even bearing that in mind, it is far easier to make friends with Dutch people or German people than the British. The British seem to divide themselves into little exclusive groupings and not be particularly intrusive (my theory is that its due to constant waves of immigration throughout its history). They seem to have pre-formed ideas that they will not like new people unless they are of a certain "sort", or know people that they do.

I don't believe shyness is "selfishness", it is emotionally painful and so it takes up your thoughts, just as a physical pain would be difficult to just forget about. No-one takes pleasure or satisfaction in being shy or suffering from social anxiety, or being convinced they're socially lacking - sufferers would love to be able to forget their crippling shyness and engage happily with others. The shy people I know are not selfish, they are often sensitive and thoughtful, they just find it hard to make chit-chat.

Boffin that's actually a great idea, and something I would really love. I will look into that. Thanks.

Boffin, that SW experience sounds so like FatFighters!

I agree there's so much rudeness and can't-be-botheredness around, don't think it's just the younger generation, I've experienced it from all ages.
And we left London a few years ago, tired of the rudeness and ignorance, but have found not much difference out in the sticks. (Hang on, does that mean it must be me? No, can't be , I'm lovely - must be them!)

You think you're following standard advice, getting out and about meeting people, but some people seem to think it's a sign of weakness to be friendly and welcoming to a newcomer in front of their mates. And if I, as a newcomer, talk to you, it doesn't mean I'm trying to be your best friend - don't flatter yourself, love.

Re. the shyness: I've come across the theory that there's a thin line between shyness and self-absorption; I think there's something in it, but when you're stuck in that hideous trough of being utterly conscious of yourself in a negative way, it's nigh on impossible to break out of it. I don't think that can be the problem with most of these rude, unwelcoming types, though; they're often quite loud-mouthed in the comfort of their own cosy set.

Haven't read all the thread but I tend to agree. Though i do find that if i start chatting, most people will respond. And live in quite a friendly area too but have noticed the more people aren't from London the more they don;t chit chat. I wonder if people believe the myth of 'you don't talk to others in london' when they come here? (the OP said London, didn't she? or did i make it up?)

Went to a very nice parent and toddler group here where the organisers made a big effort to introduce everyone - was really pleasantly surprising. And they hold your baby/play with your kid too. And give free homemade muffins

Lequeen, what do you think about the ones that actually want to be seen as stand offish

I'm actually not too bad in social situations if there's someone less confident than me. I tend to take them on and introduce them around a bit etc. And I'm happy to take a lead if it's all a bit quiet and in need of someone to provide some social glue. What I find really hard is gatherings where everyone seems confident and happy and in tight little groups chattering away. Then I just play with the kids or find a job like the tidying/washing up. I know where Martha was coming from...

LeQueen, I think you have a point but I would say self-centred or self-focused rather than selfish.

Example of how non-shy people navigate the world. I commuted to London for a year and got the train at a stop where the train was already pretty full.

There was a group of people who had been travelling together for years and years, and they had set up a kind of informal seating Mafia, in which one of them would be more or less shoved onto the train, and by some miraculous means still unclear to me, would manage to procure seats for the rest of the group in an otherwise full carriage. On Fridays one of them would bagsy a group of seats for the homeward journey and sausage rolls, crisps and bottles of wine would come out.

Now being a sociologist I spotted this on about day 2 or 3, and thought "I'd like a piece of that jolliness and a seat. I bet they'd like my home made fruit cake as well". So I established the ringleader's identity and set to work on her with a charm offensive in a shrewd (and I assure you, uncreepy) way.

Over the next nine months we became pretty friendly, to the point where they all recognised me, we mutually noticed if we had been ill and not travelling in, mutually noticed if someone had a new coat, asked about each others' work and families, shared parking tips, that kind of thing. I did all the right things.

However I never did make it to the next level of the Mafia. Why? I had a posher, cleverer job than all of them, as they had worked out even though I kept it rather quiet. There was a lot of "Gosh, you're so clever, how do you do it?" and it didn't matter how cordial and likeable I was, there was no way they were going to have me sitting with them every day, in the same way that they wouldn't want any professional person there because I Could Never Be Properly Like Them.

So did I assume it was me and I had no social skills, or that there was something wrong with me? No, I assumed it was because they were intrinsically socially conservative and unless I managed to successfully resuscitate one of them or stop someone's car being stolen, it was unlikely they would allow their clique to be properly penetrated. In the end I bought a first class ticket, got a seat every day, and ironically found a clique in there that was a lot more friendly, socially inclusive and co-operative. That's life.

WTF? You think they didn't want you in their 'mafia' because you had a 'posher, cleverer job than all of them'?

riiiiiighht.

I actually think they were a bit funny about people with degrees, with hindsight. They were pretty snobby about that, looking back.

C'mon, don't get funny, I was actually being a bit reflective and trying to give a bit of insight. I'm not an intellectualy snob myself, seriously.

I know, but you see. I read that and I think, you are seriously over-thinking it. (which is fun sometimes, I'll admit!). And perhaps they sensed that you were aware that you had the 'poshest, cleverest job' rather than it being from them? Maybe not, but really - how do you know it wasn't because you had the nicest hair and were jealous (by your logic)? Personally, I agree more with your last paragraph - they had found their group and didn't want any more people.

See if you can see past my terrible punctuation, must go to screeching baby.

I'm with Boffin on this. I have found myself underplaying my job in the past to make others feel more at ease. Now I can't be arsed and if they find it difficult then that's their problem. Similarly since I lost loads of weight I have experienced the bitter vinegary uglier woman spite and believe me it's out there and pretty unpleasant.

Oi Boffsy, where's my cake??

All this is exactly why I couldn't be arsed with toddler groups. I went to a couple once or twice and tried to make chit chat, nothing earth shattering, just trying to pass the time of day instead of sitting in silence like a meeting of trapist monks. Recipients of said chit chat looked at me as if I had tentacles coming out of my head and turned back to their already established friends/being absorbed in their child. What is the bloody point of going to a networking/social group if all you want to do is chat to your existing friends or play with your baby alone? You might as well go out for coffee with your own friends or stay at home.

It's not a class based thing, my family are not posh at all and are profoundly talented chatterers. You're expected to sing for your supper in our family. On the other hand I do often find that people who have been to private schools are better at the social graces because they have been taught them.

But why assume they give a monkeys about what job you do? Why would that make anyone feel uneasy or find it difficult? And the bitter uglier woman spite - YOU are the one making these judgements, surely.

If someone is nasty I don't assume it's because they are jealous of me. I don't think I have particularly low self-esteem - rather the opposite, am happy and confident in who I am.

I think people forget that everybody is trying to muddle through and say awkward things sometimes. If the doctor is a bit abrupt, well it might not be about me (she was unsettled because I was young and in a nice summer dress v. she was having a bad morning and was irritable). It's not all about ME, is it?

Adair, The only thing that changed about me was I was 9st less and looking much nicer. I drew my own conclusions.

Some people do care about what job you do, I don't but I recognise others do.

Whereas the people who bug e are the ones who underplay things. It feels like I am being patronised