to think that basic social skills have for the most part gone out the window

[ohboob]

I recently joined a craft group. I've been about 5/6 times. Everyone is very nice and friendly. They are all intelligent, university educated, mostly married, kind people. And yet every single time I go I get very brief hello's from all of them but no one ever says 'how are you' or asks the new people in the group their names or introduces themselves. I've seen 3 people start coming since I joined and all have had the same reaction. I find it so rude. They literally just sit there. My first week another new person joined and despite the fact that it was my first evening I was the only person to welcome her and ask her how she was, and how long she had been doing her craft for, where she was from, etc. etc.

Surely that is just basic manners (and social etiquette) to say hello and introduce yourself, so that the new person feels welcome? And then to ask them a bit about themselves and maybe tell them what they are working on. There are anywhere from 5 people in the group to 15 each week.

I took a friend with my last night who was really interested in joining and she had the same reaction. People looked up and said a brief hello and then just carried on working and chatting amongst themselves. It takes place in a pub and the whole point of the group is supposed to be the social side. My friend said that if she had turned up by herself she wouldn't return because it felt so unwelcoming. The very first week I joined it was the same and if I wasn't chatty and comfortable with just jumping in and making conversation I could have easily sat there all evening with no one talking to me at all and without knowing a single name of anyone there.

The funny thing is that if I make conversation and ask people how they are they start chatting and all are very friendly, so it boggles me as to why they are so rude initially. Do we just not learn manners anymore? I've come across this problem a lot with my generation (late twenties, early thirties) and it is just not how I was brought up. Very few people seem to have the basic social skills. Ironically one of the women last night was saying that she was terrified when she first joined because it's daunting walking into a group of strangers (as I found it when I joined) but she still wasn't welcoming to my friend who was in the same position as she had once been in. Why do people not connect that if they have found it hard, then others will and they need to make the effort to smile and say hello.

Gah! This is really bugging me. I don't know if it is shyness or rudeness.

Good point Riddzy I think that is certainly the case sometimes.

I've found that if a group gets to big it can lose its intimacy, so can understand a restriction on numbers, but if noobs are welcome they should be welcomed surely? If a group is small and intimate I can also understand longer term members wishing to keep it that way, again though, why welcome noobs if you're not going to welcome them? The mind boggles.

Cliques are different, they rarely advertise.... I was a member of one for years before I realised it was actually an actual clique, it was a bit scary in all honesty. Once aware I ran for the hills and have never looked back!

I think it depends on the group/class. TBH I always expect most things to be cliquey unless everyone starts together at once. I'm pleasantly surprised when it isn't. Don't think it's a modern phenomena.

Julian Fellows referred to something called "the name game" in his book "Snobs". Its where people only show interest in other people if they know mutual people. I've had this happen in practice so many times in Britain. X attempts to introduce me to Y, in order to be a good host. Y will appear disinterested, until hearing from X that Z (me) knows A. Y still shows slight reluctance, so X will attempt to seal the deal by announcing that not only do I know A, but I know B who knows C, who is a friend of Y's, and not only that but a workmate of Y's friend D. X then leaves us happily making smalltalk, although invariably these days this will be for the compulsary 5 minutes until Y can escape back to he real friends in the corner of the room, complaining that she "hates house parties because you have to spend all your time speaking to strangers at them".

nijinsky - I have experienced the Name Game, often with School mums. People will be standoffish and unresponsive to friendly overtures, until they find out you know one of their friends

I'd rather be boarding - I agree it can be at least as bad in the work environment.
Personally I think it's nice if people say "hello" in the morning and "goodbye" when we leave. But apparently this isn't a universal idea

Some people I've worked with seem to think they're too busy to say "hello", especially if they have a more senior position. What a load of nonsense !
If they don't know that building a good team is the most important thing, then really, is there any hope ?

I think you're right OP, basically the art of conversation seems to be a dying art !
Those that are able should make more effort, and help those who are new, or who for any other reason, would greatly appreciate their endeavours.

I'm a compulsive introducerer, as I always think if I haven't introduced you, you know each other now, and if I have (especially if I've done it repeatedly under the influence of too much lager), you've got something to talk about, even if it is Cameron's drink problem and how many times I've introduced you before!
I think it's called taking one for the team?

Cameron

I learnt to do the whole welcoming thing as a postgrad when I had to organise social events for new students and realised that nothing I said, no matter how idiotic, could possibly be worse than me not saying anything to people as they came in.

have since learned that actually there are one or two people who will take offence at the most banal of comments (I once got a 'So?' response from someone at a Mumsnet Christmas meet-up when I commented on how far she had travelled to get there) but never mind them.

I struggle in certain social situations. At a playgroup for example i am fine, as i feel 'qualified' (iyswim?) to talk to everyone there, we all have something in common, so even if the conversation is only about the children, you are still engaging with people. It is a good icebreaker - How old is your child? Is he/she your only one? Do you go to many groups? etc which can then lead on to conversation about life before kids, interests etc.

What i really struggle with is socialising with DH's work colleagues. They are all highly educated, very confident, sociable. I feel i have nothing to say. I am so worried about asking/saying the wrong thing, so tend to hover behind DH when someone takes pity on me and starts asking me about the kids. I answer but i am very concious(sp?) of not boring people, and never quite know how to turn it around. Every time we go out i conciously make an effort to be different and every time i come home feeling like a knob.

Now reading this i actually feel worse thinking that people may think i have no interest in them, or that i am being a snob.

YANBU
It IS rude.
I always introduce myself to people (my only social life tends to be toddler things) and about 50% of people just look at me blankly, mumble, do an embarrassed smile or fail to make eye contact at all. I am made to feel like the weirdo and inside I'm always thinking "Doh, stop being so friendly they will think you are pushy" but I then try to move onto "fuckit they are the weirdo".

I DID actually have someone respond "oh yes but lets not talk about that, it's really boring" during chit chat once . I've never been able to go to anything where I knew she would be since.

OP, I know exactly what you mean, I too used to find that if I did'nt make the effort and make the first move no one would speak. Sadly I have given up a bit myself now and don't bother because I am just a bit fed up of having to be the one making an effort all the time.

I was never "taught" these social skills, and am pretty shy as well. Though I have got better as I have got older. But reading this I am determined to actually try and teach these skills to dd.

I do make an effort to chat to neighbours, in the post office etc if she is with me. I don't want dd to think I had no social skills!

DP despite being being more hermitly inclined than me is really good. Always seems to end up in a happy interesting conversation at parties with strangers. His family are madly chatty though.

I have been going to a yoga class for over a year, and superficially the class is friendly but really they are just friendly with each other. They have all been going for years, some are very old! and the teacher calls them all by name but she has never asked my name! Even though I have the same christian name as the teacher!
Before this I went to a aquafit class at the local leisure for about two years, but the oldtimers there have been going for about 15 years, and four of them would arrive late and then push to the front and stand about an inch in front of you in THEIR space. So rude.
I am a member of a leisure club and the staff are friendly and I go with friends so the yoga ladies rudeness doesn't really bother me, but I wander if the yoga teacher will ever ask my name?!

I think the art of being able to introduce people to each other has totally gone. I always introduce people to each other but sometimes my DH will meet a colleague in the street who I don't know and I have to ask him to introduce me to them? Maybe that's a bit rude too? But I pull him up on it as it really bugs me!

YANBU. It's up to the oldies to welcome newbies, just basic manners.

Yanbu - I also think it is a bit of a cultural thing tbh as I am from a med background and don't find this problem as profound in other countries?

I will talk to everyone and am genuinely interested in finding out about people but some people are such cold fish I don't know why I bother!

One of the best "seminars" I attended at university was the Principal's drinks party. She held one or two every term so during a three year degree you were likely to go to at least two. She invited a complete mixed bag from the college community, and the chances were that you would know hardly anyone well, and only a few by sight. But of course many attending were old hands at this game, so gauche first year undergraduates could learn from their masters. A genuine wish to be friendly, to draw people in and to allow the other person to shine in conversation makes such a difference, and it is such a joy when you come across it. That sort of social ease can be taught, but it's so much easier to learn at your parents' knees, and it is lovely to see that so many posters are keen to teach their children to be friendly and welcoming.

Some of the evil mares at toddler groups are past praying for though.

YANBU. I went to a playgroup recently where I knew no one at all. I was hugely pregnant and tired and my child was whining and clinging to my knees. Everyone looked round and stared and then started talking between themselves. I just got on with things, checking out whether I thought these were 'womenlikeme' and was just thinking how offish they were, and how we might sneak home, when the least of the 'womenlikeme' women came over and said "hello, I'm Peg, you look like you need a sit down and a brew. Let me show you where everything is and get you a chair. Here, have mine." And steered me into the middle of the other girls, who took her lead, and were friendly to me.
I could have kissed her. What a lovely lovely person, I'm going to try to be more like her to the next new people I meet.

YANBU and social skills do need to be taught. Most people seem to never have learnt any social skills at home. I have to say that I never learned any social skills at home either because my mother is very shy so growing up I was like her as I'd never learnt any different. Once I moved away from home at 18 and had to make friends, sink or swim, I just had to pick up social skills and so I would just mimc the skills of people I met who I liked and who I found to be good networkers and confident socialisers.

I do empathise with genuinely shy people, having been like that myself when I was a child / teenager, but I think manners should not be impossible to attain for anyone, no matter what their upbringing. It's only manners, even if you're shy, to introduce yourself when someone new joins and welcome them to a group.

What is the founder member of the group doing? Usually there is a 'mammy' / older sister type who runs these things and who goes around introducing everyone and welcoming newcomers. Odd if she set the group up but isn't bothering to be friendly to newcomers and encourage socialising...

is 'university educated' even relevnt to this thread? I dont give a shit if you went to uni or the local dive. Just be friendly and I'll be friendly back. Don;t treat me like an asshole and be rude. I don;t go out much so small talk is very hard for me now.

And you know what else I hate? Being in a group of strangers like you describe, and everyones on their bloody phones! That's why no one talks anymore!
The fingers do the talking these days...

Those who say they have been taught these skills - how were you taught? I was definitely not taught (for some reason my parents didn't teach me life skills generally) and I would like to do better for my dcs.

I was visiting a private school recently and the year 6 boys (11 year olds) had to take a couple of visitors around each, show them the school and make small talk. I was very impressed with our guide (as you were meant to be I'm sure). These children were obviously being taught social skills, but I'm still not sure how.

Hello, everybody, how are you all this morning ? I have found that the privately educated are the absolute worst for this type of rude cliquiness.They seem to have absolutely no interest in talking to people who don't know anyone they know. I have experienced this both at university and with my dh's privately educated mates. I find those that went to educational establishments with a greater social mix, generally have better developed social skills and are friendlier.

I am very well Naughtymummy, how are you? I hope you are well cause I have the feeling your comment on privately educated people might irrate some people...

I feel your pain! DP's family (including DP!!) never introduce one to any other acquaintances you might meet in their company. I find this incredibly rude and offensive, are they ashamed of me?
Now, after many years I say, hi I'm Earthy, RudeBugger's SIL, and hold out my hand, in a scary, I mean friendly manner!!
It is definitely a family thing, I included my kids in conversations with adults and they have great social skills!!

I think becoming a mother can make a difference to a lot women in terms of social skills. It forces you to be proactive about introducing yourself and chitchat, whereas when you're in an office all day you make friends by default, colleagues are a captive audience and you don't have to try. I also started selling real nappies shortly after my first was born and that really whipped my shyness into shape.
Shyness is nice, but...

Our craft group is big and I find there are a couple of really friendly women who people are just naturally drawn to, so in a way it is a bit cliquey as we all try to sit near them! But then if everyone was a friendly and welcoming as them, it wouldn't be a problem.