to think that basic social skills have for the most part gone out the window

[ohboob]

I recently joined a craft group. I've been about 5/6 times. Everyone is very nice and friendly. They are all intelligent, university educated, mostly married, kind people. And yet every single time I go I get very brief hello's from all of them but no one ever says 'how are you' or asks the new people in the group their names or introduces themselves. I've seen 3 people start coming since I joined and all have had the same reaction. I find it so rude. They literally just sit there. My first week another new person joined and despite the fact that it was my first evening I was the only person to welcome her and ask her how she was, and how long she had been doing her craft for, where she was from, etc. etc.

Surely that is just basic manners (and social etiquette) to say hello and introduce yourself, so that the new person feels welcome? And then to ask them a bit about themselves and maybe tell them what they are working on. There are anywhere from 5 people in the group to 15 each week.

I took a friend with my last night who was really interested in joining and she had the same reaction. People looked up and said a brief hello and then just carried on working and chatting amongst themselves. It takes place in a pub and the whole point of the group is supposed to be the social side. My friend said that if she had turned up by herself she wouldn't return because it felt so unwelcoming. The very first week I joined it was the same and if I wasn't chatty and comfortable with just jumping in and making conversation I could have easily sat there all evening with no one talking to me at all and without knowing a single name of anyone there.

The funny thing is that if I make conversation and ask people how they are they start chatting and all are very friendly, so it boggles me as to why they are so rude initially. Do we just not learn manners anymore? I've come across this problem a lot with my generation (late twenties, early thirties) and it is just not how I was brought up. Very few people seem to have the basic social skills. Ironically one of the women last night was saying that she was terrified when she first joined because it's daunting walking into a group of strangers (as I found it when I joined) but she still wasn't welcoming to my friend who was in the same position as she had once been in. Why do people not connect that if they have found it hard, then others will and they need to make the effort to smile and say hello.

Gah! This is really bugging me. I don't know if it is shyness or rudeness.

I have to say one of the nice things about Cambridge University is that it is an unwritten rule at formal dinners that you talk nicely to the person next to you for one course, then turn to the other side for the next course, and then (depending on the college) get up after pudding, have a coffee and then go back in for what they call dessert (fruit and more booze) and sit in completely different places to mingle even more. It's very inclusive.

For canteen style meals at my college (i.e. lunch) you take a tray, fill it, deliberately sit next to someone else and introduce yourself politely, and then have a nice conversation. It would be rude to park yourself on your own unless you have to read something through while you have lunch due to lack of time. But most people are sociable.

I think this are worthy old fashioned values and we would do well to use such socialisation techniques elsewhere as well. BTW I am the one who tends to lead the way and make everyone bond, but I am half Swabian

But what if the person on your right is talking to the person on their right, and the one on your left talks to the one on their left? And then they're both trying to talk to you in the next course?

Have to say when this has happened I've assumed I must have been too boring or offended the person I'd been sitting next to! Now I know this may not have been the case :o

"sit in completely different places to mingle even more"

I have had the same experience when joining groups and clubs - tried not to let it get to me as I was there for the activitiy, not primarily the social aspect, though would have liked to make friends as well - but felt very uncomfortable before/after and during the breaks, just standing around awkwardly on my own with no one bothering to talk to me or even say hello. Everyone seemed to split off into their own little group of friends, and didn't seem interested in any interaction outside that.

I did think it was at least partly my fault, as I'm quite shy and didn't make as much effort as I could have done to introduce myself and get involved in the social side. It's difficult though when you're the new person :(

dreaming I always feel really embarrassed that people such as yourself get such a seemingly frosty welcome. Whenever I go abroad so many people are welcoming and interested in you (massive generalisation and obviously not everyone is like that but still)
I know you have been here a few years, but WELCOME, we are very glad to have you here, I hope you enjoy your time in England.

I'm not sure that people do grow wiser as they get older. I'm 40 now and am doing the whole school thing with my dc in yr 1. I've known lots of the mums round abouts for years, done the whole playgroups, nursery and now school but to be honest most of the women just seem to be plain rude. I've recently joined a group for the mums at school and through this have become friendly with some of the members. Saying that some of the more 'difficult' mothers have also joined, don't stick to the rules and seem to be deadset on ruining it for the other members. Some of their interactions with other members are incredibly rude, to the point of provocation. It's bizarre. I don't believe that these people are really that unpleasant deep down and I wish that they'd just take a step back and understand that everybody else is as important as they are.

It's almost like some of the mothers want you to 'run after them' so that they feel popular and then get offended if you don't make a fuss over them or what's going on in their lives. However they don't seem to be interested in making any attempt to understand what's going on for other people. I started to get so paranoid thinking I was a horrible person because I just wasn't used to people being so rude (I'd always had lots of friends in university and in my workplaces). The area where I live is also changing demographically with more affluent families moving in and I really have seen a change over the 10+ years I've lived here.

I think London may have something to do with it? People moving away from family and home towns are often escaping something and perhaps taking the chance to re-invent themselves, which is fine but if you don't find a way of intigrating your past with your present life then it's going to come and bite you on the bum one day....

Is it that women are led to believe that they 'can have it all' and so have become so competitive towards each other that it's having a negative effect on our lives? If so, then how terribly sad that is.

Someone mentione meeting confident private school people at their drama school near the beginning.

I've said for a long time that people who go to public school often do better in life not just because of better education or the old boys network but because they have a self confidence.
I've noticed it in both DH and his best friend. Neither of them left school with any amazing qualifications, his friend when to music college and dh worked his way up, neither have the contacts from school to make business easier but they are both so so confident in social situations in a way that I never was.

I think the person who mentioned it getting easier with age may also be onto something

I was brought up in a "children are seen and not heard" sort of environment. I didn't have an unhappy childhood at all, but I did not really interact with adults until I was in my twenties. I think this meant that I found it harder to just "talk" to people. As a child, I was taught to answer questions politely, but never encouraged to have a real conversation. I'm fine now (I think!) and don't feel fearful at all in groups and I'm happy to talk to strangers - though I am shockingly bad at remembering names.

My dc, on the other hand, socialised with adults from an early age and became used to chatting away with people of all ages (particularly in our local amateur dramatic society - so they're not all bad!). They both have good social skills now as young adults and I do think this is probably because they were lucky enough to meet adults who would happily engage them in conversation when they were younger.

YANBU. However, depends what sort of group you're joining. Perhaps something a bit more abstract like life drawing? I loved going to the one in my old town, I was in my early 20's yet there were people of all ages, students to practise their skills, older amateurs, couples. Some people were amazingingly talented and some people were absolutely sh** but it was so friendly and everyone would walk around to chat and discuss each others work. I took my friend once and we had a right laugh, but I'd mostly go alone and feel comfortable. Find a different group, what about poetry or creative writing? Or a different art group. Don't stick at something which is unenjoyable.

Mercury, this does happen if people forget, and it's also a bit of a problem if you are at the end of the table! But in principle it's good as people know to introduce themselves to strangers and have a cordial chat.

I think the thing about independent school is that pupils spend more time interacting intellectually with their teachers, and there is more classroom debate and interaction. They are not just left to talk to peers most of the time. This means they build up the techniques and tools necessary to express themselves well. Easy when you have 15 in a class rather than 30 ...

Ukulele jams are the friendliest, happiest, most welcoming groups in the world! Sod the craft, get strumming.

ohboob thanks that's very sweet!

I did eventually make a lot of friends here (and caught a DH!) But it was a rocky start and it would have helped to know back then that it wasn't at all personal.

This thread is so interesting! Thanks for starting it

This thread makes me feel more normal. I have run numerous groups over the years and practically bribed people to welcome new members. I remember one idiot who flatly refused to welcome newcomers, because "When I come here I want to talk to my friends! I do not expect to have to welcome a bunch of people I don't know!"

Should've kicked him out, shouldn't I?

Some people are shy, some people have deeper social difficulties...and some people are just wankers.

I think that some of the problem might be caused by this generation mixes with people less socialy i.e. computers, mobiles mean we don't just hang out adn chat as kids like previous generations did.

Well said SpeedyG - especially your erudite summary of the situation

YANBU I find groups like this really difficult Most people don't seem interested in how welcome newcomers might feel at all. I find it very difficult to know how to behave in these situations as the expectation seems to be that you stick to the group you came with and not speak to people you don't know. This was why I loved the NCT as most people said from the start they where there to meet people in a simlar situation and you knew where you were. I either blame Thatcher (for the selfish me me me society) or new labour for attempting to regluate just about every way in which people interact with each other. :)

I also agree - I had my first baby not longer after moving to London and was pretty much on my own so went along to an NCT-run playgroup. Anyway, after about 6 weeks in a row of me trying to make light conversation and introducing myself and my baby I was still getting more or less blanked and had to give up going! Same with the local one o'clock club - women would come to it in groups of 2 or 3 and just blank anyone else. One time my dc and I were there alone sitting around a 4 foot by 4 foot play mat and a group of 3 women sat down. One of their kids had a runny nose and one of the women said 'oh I think I have tissues outside in my buggy' and I offered her one - she looked at it as if it was a smallpox-infused blanket.
The only mums who were EVER friendly were not English I have to say - I'm Irish.

Dreaming, glad you caught a DH

ukelele jamming, now that sounds fun. I'm off to see if there's one in my area.

I am not very good in social situations, though I do try. My parents are lovely people, but socially very awkward and didn't ever try to teach me how to socialise - to the extent that I remember excruciating drinks parties with academics at my posh university, when I didn't realise that if someone introduced themselves to me, I was supposed to introduce myself in turn.

Funny this thread should come up because I've been musing on this lately. We went to a street party type thing over the RW BH weekend and everyone was already sitting down with picnics in little groups when we arrived. So we mostly didn't talk to anyone, except the odd hello on the way to get drinks etc. While we were there (feeling awkward and out of it, and wishing we were back home in my case), I noticed that DD1 seemed also slightly on the edge of things, although she knew lots of other children there. So my question is, if my parents have handed social misery onto me, how can I avoid handing it on to my children?

I have wondered the same thing, dotty2. My parents never really had any kind of social life, never had friends over, we never went out to cafes or restaurants or to anyone's house, so I just had no idea how to behave in many 'normal' situations. The first time I went to a restaurant actually was when I met DP at the age of 20 and he asked me out to dinner - I almost said no as I was so worried about it, and remember sitting their feeling horribly awkward and ignorant the whole time, trying not to give away that I had no clue about anything .

My parents did actively keep us from socialising as children though - for religious reasons mostly. They didn't want us interacting too much and being exposed to outside influences - so for example when we were at school, we had to come home for lunch instead of eating with the other children.

I obviously wouldn't intentionally isolate my children like that, but I do worry that as I'm so socially awkward myself, and only have my own parents as an example of how (not!) to teach your children to socialise, that it's going to be difficult...

smallwhitecat I absolutely agree - women can be guilty of judging/disliking others just because of the way they look.

Ephiny - that's interesting to hear. It's hard, isn't it - still inheritance needn't be destiny. (Determines to try to talk to someone at school pick up time today...)

Smallwhitecat, that is indeed a good system.

I had a lightbulb moment when you said about appearance - I am a bit overweight but often one of the better looking women in any gathering (slightly Nordic appearance, like Grace Kelly's country sister), and it certainly explains a lot of the hassle I have had over the years with other women being nasty to me, bullying at school, school gate issues and so on. It hadn't occured to be it might be lookist. You may have just hit on something there. On the upside, I don't think I have ever had to buy a drink at a male dominated event in my life.