or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

One of the main problems though was that I didn't have a proper opportunity to resolve the situation, though I did talk firmly and also reasonably with DS while I could - as Grandpa rapidly decided to take over, and was way too cross to do so in an effective or reasonable way. Hence we left the scene so I had the opportunity to talk more calmly with DS, and we returned later.

I wouldn't smack a child for not coming to the table. And I don't think people are saying a 6 year old boy is breathtakingly rude for having a strop.

What they are saying is that a 6 year old should know that when someone has made a meal you come and sit down and eat it. And if the 6 year old was reluctant to come and sit down, the parents should intervene and tell the child to come and sit down.

To accept that a 6 year old will only come and sit at the table when he wants to, is basically to say that your child's desires are more important than anyone else's. Part of learning to get on with others is learning we all need to take account of everyone else and not just what we want to do at that moment.

TBH I would have been totally shocked if any of my children at 6 years old had a strop about sitting at a table for a meal with the extended family. And I think some of the up ideas make sense and some of my parenting was like up. But learning to interact as part of a wider social group, and develop consideration is imo very important.

Jugglingjo, I agree there are lots of other things you could have done in the situation you described but without having to resort to bribery with sweets or money or threatening a punishment.

I don't know how long you tried to reason, but I'm assuming it was several minutes before Grandpa lost his temper. In which case, why not just give him 5 minutes to finish up and then join everyone else in the first place. (Of course it is so much easier to say that with hindsight!)

I also agree with posters that if you are invited to lunch by people who are sticklers for everyone sitting down at the same time, you should ensure your 6 yr old respects this. I don't think it is incompatible with UP.

there are a LOAD of things you could do in between talking wetly reasonably and smacking, and agreeing with otherside, without having to resort to bribery.
eg...diversion tactics---talk about what you are doing after lunch, whats for pudding etc whilst dragging him to the table. Picking him up and carrying are 2 things which cme to mind for me.
But WITHOUT a UP approach in the first place, you are less likely to find yourself in this situation with a 6 year old, in the first place.

It seems there is a distinct lack of imagination amongst UPs- when considering the approaches in between UP and beating a child/ naughty step etc

had never heard of it before but it i think it sounds great.

"But WITHOUT a UP approach in the first place, you are less likely to find yourself in this situation with a 6 year old, in the first place."

and

"To accept that a 6 year old will only come and sit at the table when he wants to, is basically to say that your child's desires are more important than anyone else's. Part of learning to get on with others is learning we all need to take account of everyone else and not just what we want to do at that moment."

Exactly and that is what I was trying to say above when I said Juglingjo's post perfectly illustrated what most of the posters have been saying is wrong with UP.

it wasn't breathtakingly rude on the part of the child that he had a strop about coming in for lunch

that was merely 'rude'

What was breathtakingly rude was the child's parent not insisting on socially acceptable behavior from him, leaving it to other people to clumsily attempt to bring the child into line.

This is where UP falls down, it's the bit where the child has to deal with 'other people' who don't think that reasoning for 80 minutes then giving in is an acceptable way to deal with a naughty six year old.

(And to further muddy the water, if my parents ever smacked my child for any reason except endangerment of life, I wouldn't talk to them again, ever)

"But WITHOUT a UP approach in the first place, you are less likely to find yourself in this situation with a 6 year old, in the first place."

Don't agree with this. Children are children and it's not that unusual for a 6yo however parented to object to dropping everything with little notice if they are engrossed in something.

"it's the bit where the child has to deal with 'other people' who don't think that reasoning for 80 minutes then giving in is an acceptable way to deal with a naughty six year old."

I'm not sure where the 80mins has come from, but I think most of the time (30mins) was probably wasted sorting out the backlash from the smack.

OBJECT -yes, but at 6 years old-massive tantrum on being asked to come in for lunch and persistently refusing- not so much IME

Actually I think it is fairly unnusual for a 6 year old to expect to be able to carry on playing when called in for lunch

I don't think I've ever met an NT child older than 3 who would think it was even negotiable

what a mad confusing experience for the bairn

no, UP parents dont work harder to create the expectations and boundaries upfront, all parents work hard at doing this.

the difference is in what happens when the child doesnt meet the expectations and boundaries

I'm sympathetic, Jugglingjo. Sounds like the smacking grandfather behaved like an arse.

I could imagine that being me & my 6yo.
tbh, coming from another culture (and maybe fairly hippy laid back parents within that culture) I find a lot of English expectations around mealtimes and for young children in particular to follow those rules, to be utterly ridiculous. Sitting at the table to wait for others to finish, "correct" use of cutlery, stopping everything else just because it's mealtimes -- we didn't do that growing up. We had so many dozens of relatives & friends at meals, including children of all ages, it would have been unthinkable and unworkable. It's all cultural these expectations and sometimes grate badly on my nerves when people seem to argue there's only one way to politely share a meal, no matter what age you are.

Expect an adult to come quickly and sit & socialise all thru a meal, yes. But we wouldn't lean on children about it. Half the time we'd be happy to just get some peace and quiet during our meal & let the kids carry on being kids for a spell.

I dont' know what that has to do with UP, though. :)

You see, some people here find it very rude and others don't. Personally i find it rude but my laid back father wouldn't mind. The fact that you are arguing about whether it was rude or not shows what i kept saying: that every family is different, with different rules, expectations, traditions. This is why following a method-any method- to letter doesn't work. No child guru in the world knows your children and your extended family, you know them, you need to judge the situation and decide how to haddle it.

Mixed race families and expats know this very well. And their children do too. I can see how my dcs behave in uk and how they behave in my country and how they behave in dh's country. They know that there are different expectations and rules and sometimes you need to adapt.

Oh just read *ragged' and it's interesting that she mentions cultural expectations too.

Thanks for some sympathy,ragged !
I think if some posters had been there they'd be more sympathetic too.
Some people's interpretation of events seems quite different from how it was.
Possibly a mistake of mine to post about this episode on this thread or anywhere on AIBU
I don't think I was being unreasonable, but evidently there are plenty of folks around here looking to say, Yes, YABU !

Thanks for some sympathy,ragged !
I think if some posters could have been there they'd be more sympathetic too.
Some people's interpretation of events seems quite different from how it was.
Possibly a mistake of mine to post about this episode on this thread or anywhere on AIBU
I don't think I was being unreasonable, but evidently there are plenty of folks around here looking to say, Yes, YABU ! whether to the OP or anyone else.

• Though possibly it does serve to illustrate what can happen when an UP type of approach to parenting clashes with the world around you, and others views of how it should be done.

sorry folks for the double posting - it was confusing as mumsnet off-line for 5 minutes

I do think that you got a lot of flaming jugglingjo but please don't let it put you off posting again. As you said we were not there.

Thanks Laquitar - I thought you made some good points too, about cultural differences in families, and about every family being unique really.

As we are all different, and raise our children in such a variety of different environments, no one method will work for everyone - or perhaps even for anyone all of the time !

Yes every family is different, but I still think children should be brought up to be able to follow the different rules in different families and cultures. For example, you are at home so it is fine to tell rude (for 5 year olds!) jokes at the table. Tomorrow we are going out for a meal for grannys birthday and it isn't fine to tell rude jokes at the table.

I think some parents underestimate their children. As long as they are given warning of different rules, I think children very quickly adapt to a different set of rules in different places. And this is exactly what adults do as well. So I behaved very differently having my friends round for pizza than I did at a posh work awards do - although I enjoyed both.