or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

I would read it if I came across it-just for interest. There is no harm in these things as long as you take the bits that suit you and leave the rest.

I would say that really you would treat your DC like any normal adult. If an adult shows you something they are really proud of, they have retiled the bathroom, redesigned the garden, designed a website you would show approval, say well done, how clever , I love your ideas, you have worked hard etc -so why withhold it from a DC?

They do actually want you to get excited. When my DS got his Alevel grades and his 1st choice place at university I was so pleased and excited I stamped on his foot I was dancing around so much! He still laughs about it-and the fact that I am apt to cry. I think that they would all be upset if I curbed my nature because 'Alfie Kohn says I mustn't praise'!!!

I read the book and didn't find his examples that helpful - eg his child was refusing to walk along the road to the car so he sat down next to her and waited until they were ready to go - this was his example for avoiding tantrums, and of course this approach works, and is great if you have one child and bags of time, but if you are on your way to collect another child from school this would mean you were late - not that fair on older child...
Lots of the examples were like this - easy to understand and in many cases the common sense approach when you are not under any time pressure and have only one child to entertain and not much else to do - he didn't really have any suggestions for how you could manage similar situations when you also have a baby screaming to be fed and an older child needing collecting...
While I found some of the general ideas to be a useful reminder to be less grumpy when tired(!) I left the book feeling that he was using his life as an example of how you should parent and that with the age gap between siblings, both parents around during the day and full-time paid childcare support it didn't really resemble mine that much!

From www.alfiekohn.org/
"This doesn't mean that all compliments, all thank-you's, all expressions of delight are harmful. We need to consider our motives for what we say (a genuine expression of enthusiasm is better than a desire to manipulate the child's future behavior) as well as the actual effects of doing so."

I haven't read the book in a while but IIRC genuine praise like in the A level example just mentioned isn't a problem.
AK disagrees with praise which is a judgement or manipulates. He also disagrees with praise as a lazy way of interacting with your child eg pretend interest, you know the kind of adult that says 'great picture' when they can't even work out what the picture represents.

Kohn argues very strongly against parents praising, EVER, in any usual sense of that word "praise", as well as I can read the book. I don't see how anyone can say that they practice UP and also give praise to their child. You certainly can't say something like "Good job"

For instance, Kohn says (pg 154-155)
The most destructive form of praise is the kind explicitly intended to reinforce what the child is doing. ... what matters isn't the message you sent -- or even the reason you sent it. What matters is the message the child received....Why do we feel the need to keep evaluating our children's actions, turning them into "jobs" that may, if they're lucky, be deemed "good"? From this perspective, it becomes clear that what we really ought to be looking for is a way of being positive that isn't couched as a judgement....

But in case you're still wondering what to say, there are several possibilities consistent with unconditional parenting. (Please see the chart on p. 157 for examples.) One option is to say nothing at all... On those occasions when we feel it would be appropriate to say something, we can simply point out what we've seen and allow the child to decide how to feel about it...

Full list of Chart on pg. 157:
saying nothing...
describing rather than evaluating what you see... [That's colourful]
explaining the effects of the child's action on other people: "You set the table! Boy, that makes things a lot easier on me while I'm cooking"...
Inviting reflection [How did you think of that?]...
asking, rather than judging [Why did you want to share?]

"Look how hard you worked" is definitely NOT allowed. You may not praise effort, not a chance of it.

Exotic, you're allowed to dance around because you're happy. But you aren't allowed to say "You're wonderful! I'm so proud of you!"

I use a lot of praise like his setting table example, describing why it is good rather than saying 'good boy'. Sounds lile nitpicking but I loosely agree with his analysis.. I certainly express delight/pleasure though at things ds has done. But I often say 'you must be so proud of yourself'! Trying to foster intrinsic motivation rather than just a desire to please me.

It is all mad ragged

I am proud of all my DCs-massively so- and despite Alfie Kohn I shall tell them so. My parents are proud of me. If I do something great I immediately get on the phone to my mother-I know she is one person I can rely on to be just as pleased and proud-and I am upset that my father isn't alive to see it.

When my DS survived a dangerous capsizing I told him that I was so proud of him for keeping calm and following instructions.

I wouldn't say 'good boy, how clever to clean your teeth'-'how amazing you are for finishing all your dinner'.

I know one UP parent whose DD was really pleased to get full marks for her first spelling test(she had worked really hard on them) and mother said 'it's not important-I would still love you if you got them all wrong' (in a normal loving relationship surely the DCs knows this and a well done wouldn't go amiss?

Parents should be themselves-you don't have to curb your natural instincts. DCs will see straight through you if you do.

Exotic - I don't think he's suggesting you curb your natural enthusiasm. More that if your motivation for praising was because you wanted the action repeated. I think the differences are subtle but can be important. I do some of the 'wrong' type of praise though - as I say, I don't follow it as a prescription. But cutting out the random, absent minded 'good boy' I used to say has helped I think!

In your spelling test example - no I don't think dcs always do know this, or feel it, deep down. Their core self esteem is what can be affected. My mother was fab but she did put a lot of emphasis on academic achievements - even though she never said, explicitly, I could always sense the disapppointment if I didn't do as well - maybe because of the enthusiastic praise when I excelled? I don't know.

Saying 'that's not important' is a bit harsh. I would probably say something like 'I bet you want to phone Grandad and tell him your important news!'

At least Grandad could then say 'good girl-well done!!' (unless he is firmly under control!)

I believe it making sure the right thing gets praised. Not wow you got an A you're really clever (etc.) but look at how well you worked and what that led to. (effect of the former is people think they're good for being clever and that leads to a lot of pressure and fear or failure, which personally does ring true for me)

Again, this is not exclusive to Ups. This is what all parents do

ignore my last post- I hadnt refreshed my screen- converstaion has covered this and moved on...

exotic, he probably would!

I'm all for the 'takes a village......'
I can see why some parents go for UP, but they should realise that they can only control themselves and other adults will make their own relationships with DCs.

I think the problem with the whole "Is UP/Gina Ford/Supernanny nuts?" arguments, is that everybody has their own interpretation of these methods and the theories behind them.

I've read UP. I liked UP. I'm therefore using UP principles to raise our DD. It seems logical to me, I'm happier since we switched from more behaviourist methods (albeit briefly) and seems to be working. Is there anything wrong with that?

From what I've read of other UP's, some people do things the same as me, others more unstructured (for want of a better word) some more strict. I really couldn't give a fig.

Same goes for Supernanny and her step. I've watched numerous episodes of Supernanny, and have read things from her website. I'm confident I know how you are "supposed" to do the Naughty Step and the theory behind it. However, I've witnessed a great number of parents putting it in to action, and I don't think I've seen it carried out exactly the same way twice. Everyone puts their own spin on it, whether to the good or the bad.

I therefore cannot turn around and say that all parents who do the Naughty Step are going to end up with children that misbehave because they get the attention they so desperately crave whilst their parents are faffing about trying to get them to sit on a mat for 4 minutes without getting up. Because that is based upon my experiences of just a handful of people who just so happen to use the Naughty Step. They aren't therefore "Supernanny Parents". They are just parents. Using a technique. That they feel is right for their family.

Books like UP, or BLW are there to provide information. For people to do with what they wish. Personally, I'm very thankful for them. Because I'm a happier mother for them. I would have muddled along fine without them, I'm sure. DD would have still grown up to be a happy, well rounded person, I hope. But the books and websites and articles and forum posts I have read regarding different parenting methods, have opened up my eyes to ways of doing things I didn't know anything about before.

Why people think reading and learning about something as important as parenting is a bad thing I'll never know. Most people do not read about parenting so that they can sign up for a 'philosophy' and follow it blindly. Most people who read about parenting are just trying to better themselves and find the way to parent their child that sits best with them.

I do call myself a UP sometimes, because in company where the acronym is understood, it's an easy shorthand way of explaining our style. But really, we're all just P's, aren't we?

Most people do not read about parenting so that they can sign up for a 'philosophy' and follow it blindly

I think that those just trying to better themselves are fine-unfortunately there are those who take on board 'the whole philosophy' and then you get to the state where 2 yr olds are taken out in winter with no clothes to find out it is cold! (if you made an 8yr old go out naked it would be abuse, so why it isn't just because a 2 yr old is too young to understand I don't know! If the mother is 29ys or whatever she is the adult-she knows why they need clothes and she should be using the knowledge). If I had a nanny and she took my 2 yr old out with clothes in a carrier in heavy frost I would think that I had made a huge error of judgement in employing her.

I would feel very embarrassed having my 2 yr olds foot stitched in A&E-too embarrased to say 'actually I knew there was broken glass but he wouldn't put his shoes on so I made it a game and hoped to find the glass first'

Luckily I had mine before supernanny-why the 'naughty step' seems to be the universal method I don't know! We managed perfectly well without it.

It does strike me on the support group that it is all people with toddlers so either they get really good at it and don't need support, or they find it too difficult.

I think too much praise of the 'what a lovely picture, darling........what is it?'!
or 'you are a clever boy for tidying your toys' is wrong but I do think we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater not to give praise where it is due. In 20/30 yrs time I can see people saying 'how dreadful to withhold praise-I make sure I appreciate effort'.

Anyway-I thought I had bored everyone to death and had the last word! So I think that I ought to have my last word and leave you to it.
But if you do get carried away-read the support thread and think -is this common sense? because very often it is nutty! To get back to OP , it shouldn't be nutty but it often is!
Last word-I promise.

Hello exotic, you have argued well and eloquently on this thread. 'It shouldn't be nutty but it often is' about sums it up.

I parent without the 'naughty step' or loads of punishments, but would absolutely not call myself UP. I talk to DS1 (DS2 is too young at 15 months, although I do try ) about the consequences of his behaviour and reason with him. He is a bright boy so this is entirely possible.
But what I don't do is assume he knows best and bow to his every demand. I think that this is where UP parents who have the method very wrong fall down.

I suspect UP is all about mindful parenting and not at all to do with careless parenting dressed up as UP

I don't know about Supernanny, but very clear that with UP and GF that it is supposed to be all or nothing. You don't vary the routines (GF), you don't praise or reward (UP). Full Stop. NEVER. If you give praise or any judgemental response (good or bad), you are totally undermining the ethos of UP. Yet people obviously do pick and choose which bits they like or can make work.... which means they praise after all, rely on "natural consequences", etc. (hahaha).

I think I'm in the very funny position of being a UP-skeptic who is telling the UP defenders that I (a critic) have read the book much better than they have..... Shall I in future issue a snarled "Have you actually read the book?!" like the defenders usually do? .

So that's why (this is my revelation) some people get UP better so much better than me and think it's a revelation, so wonderful, etc.... because they're picking and choosing. By picking and choosing they're only incorporating some of the UP ideas, not doing it properly. Which is fine... but I'm not sure that they shouldn't be coming on threads defending "UP" so forcefully when they're only picking and choosing.

"but very clear that with UP ......... it is supposed to be all or nothing." "you don't praise or reward (UP). Full Stop."

I don't agree with the above. And anything which we read about can be adapted to take the bits that work for your family.

I'll post this again because to me this doesn't say that all praise is forbidden. Just to beware of being indiscriminate with it.

From www.alfiekohn.org/
"This doesn't mean that all compliments, all thank-you's, all expressions of delight are harmful. We need to consider our motives for what we say (a genuine expression of enthusiasm is better than a desire to manipulate the child's future behavior) as well as the actual effects of doing so."

and from the book:
"On occasion children will do things that are absolutely unacceptable and we simply must thwart their intentions. They may experience our intervention as a punishment, which makes it harder to address the underlying issues calmly or to avoid damaging the relationship. For that reason, the use of coercion is a last resort, a strategy to be used reluctantly and rarely."

So, for me, AK and UP does allow for praise and punishment but after other avenues have been explored.."

As a bit of a natural UPper, I'd just like to agree though with those posters who've said it's best not to overly narrow your repertoire of parenting options.

A case in point .... I was with my DD and DS at parents/grandparents house and children were happily playing in the garden. Fairly suddenly granny says lunch is ready, and grandpa asks everyone to come in for lunch. DS is about 6 at the time, and refuses to come in, as he says he's busy playing (I forget what exactly)
I reason with him, as does Grandpa, but who is getting increasingly cross and angry. My reasoning is to no avail, and I think I've got so used to using this approach only that I don't think of other strategies. With hindsight I wish I had, at this point, offered a bribe of chocolate, or even money, to spend straight after lunch if he came in sensibly oratall
As it was it all ended in tears all round, with Grandpa getting furious, and resorting to smacking, and I took DS off in the car until the situation had calmed down - coming back about half an hour later, when we then joined everyone for the remainder of lunch.

Thing is this had a lasting bad effect on DS's relationship with Grandpa, which he is only really getting over properly several years later.
Better to use an alternative parenting strategy to your natural or considered choice than to court disaster.
I'm sure the same could apply in many crisis situations, especially when safety is involved.
I guess I think that both insisting on things and bribery have their place as parenting tools, alongside reasoning, which for many will remain the parenting approach of choice in most situations.