or are UP parents really nuts?

[FunnysInTheGarden]

I mean talk about making all your lives difficult....

Am ready BTW for the UP parents cries of dissent [cgrin]

I reckon I'm UP lite, as I don't really do sticker charts etc. but I don't accept much nonsense either. My daughter does the dramatic crying and flouncing and I tend to ignore it until she has got herself together enough to talk to me properly about what's upsetting her - she is perfectly articulate and able to tell me what's wrong without the drama. So if you see someone in the park shrugging off her daughter flouncing about, it's not because I'm a shit parent but because I don't see this as a good way for her to get my attention. It's not because I'm a wuss or because I don't want to have a confrontation it's because I've learnt that it's the quickest way to deal with it and teaches her that it's not a method to get what she wants (attention or whatever).

Might not be a MNey thing to say, but I think the people on this thread who are talking about spoilt brats and other horrible names for small children should take a look at themselves. Hardly showing much compassion and tolerance is it?

As for the school issue, I watched this the other day: www.channel4.com/programmes/secret-life-of-the-classroom/4od the reception teacher specifically says that all children struggle with some aspects of school and it's her job to guide them through their own issues. She says that she doesn't have to shout at them, she might have to tell them the same thing more than once, but all children are capable of learning appropriate behaviour at school.

school was a bit of a nightmare for me. Only liked 2 out of 7

I didn't like school either, and my parents were VERY authoritarian with me, so it wasn't that I wasn't used to the rules. I just found it stifling and boring a lot of the time.

I don't think that bfeeding is anything to do with UP really so forget that one-I just put it in because she wanted a solution-mine would have been offer water and a reassuring pat, which worked for me, but I doubt would have been an acceptable answer..
I don't think that the man with the toddler in the PO was a UP parent-he sounded far too harrassed. All I said was that I wondered how UP would handle it? The natural consequence was that they got out of the queue and started again at the back-rather counter productive as he ran off in the first place because he was bored and I think that he was far too young to understand that waiting longer was a consequence. Having him in a buggy, on reins or tightly held would have been my answer.

but all children are capable of learning appropriate behaviour at school.

Of course they are-and they are at home too-or at someone else's house or the library etc. They need to know that what is acceptable in one place isn't elsewhere.

I think the people on this thread who are talking about spoilt brats and other horrible names for small children should take a look at themselves.

I haven't done this at all. All DC have good points, I wouldn't look at a DC and think 'spoiled brat' -I would look at the DC and think 'poor DC-why have the parents let them be so socially unacceptable'. Even then I wouldn't judge, they can easily have special needs or the parents could be trying their best with a difficult personality. HOWEVER if I then hear the parents , wetly saying 'do you think that is a good idea, darling' as they are about to hurl a stone-then I will judge.

As far as I have read, no-one has said to anyone thta they might be taking things too far/ they have misimterpreted it/ 'thats not UPing, thats not parenting at all'

Exactly. It is such an easy system to misinterpret but I doubt you get thanked for pointing it out. I have respected that it is a support thread for UP and kept off-as I am hardly a support.

LeQueen, glad to hear you've looked at the book before coming back to the thread however...

I think UP appeals to a certain type of person - well yes, different strokes for different folks, no? GF appeals to a certain type of person, go with what fits in with your family.

The book makes them feel secure, it has guidelines and structures to follow. Er, no it doesn't. Are you sure you picked up the right book? Half the issue is it doesn't give you guidelines and structures, which is why there's a lot of room for (mis)interpretation.

Also, it gives them a new identity i.e. 'I am a parent who follows UP themes' it gives them a new status. Bollocks. It gives you a shorthand term to say to other parents (usually on MN) that you're not following sticker charts etc. Do GF parents have a new identity "I am a parent who follows 4 hourly feeds?"

It also encourages them to think they are the more grounded, spiritual, intuative parent than most other parents (ergo 'better'). Again, no. If it was intuitive, the book would be redundant, and a lot of the points are counter intuitive.

Then there is also the element of belonging to something, of being part of some vaguely elitist group 'that few other people really understand, and I can enjoy treating you in a slightly condescending manner as a result.' What, like the condescending manner of your posts?

And, then of course they clearly must have quite a lot of time on their hands, a very lot of time (I wonder why) to get embroiled in long, long debates and discussions with their child, going over the same ground over and over again... As opposed to a lot of time on their hands to spend banging over the same points again and again on UP threads on MN?

And you keep saying how terrible it is that this man has written a book and makes money out of it. It is a book. Libraries have it. There is a whole heap of money in sticker charts and the like. So chuffing what?

Yawn.

Seems to me you can still love your children unconditionally whether you use reward and punishment or not.

I try to use more reward then punishment though so they know it's a good thing to be good.

My point is that it should be intuitive-it is pure common sense -and so the book should be redundant. There seems to be a need for it, as common sense is lacking (or why would you let a 14 month old walk along a busy road without holding on to them because they don't want to)
I have nothing against most of the message-just the way it is received and passed on. A bit like Chinese whispers-it gets lost in the translation! If it wasn't misinterpreted the majority of support thread would be sensible!

Oh my goodness Rambling Rosa - how could you? You use dessert as a reward? You do realise that your children will now only think that you love them if they eat all their dinner and get dessert don't you? You've really scarred them for life! They'll end up as juvenile delinquents and will disappear from all 'good' society. You terrible mother you!

Sorry lillilolo - I'm not too tolerant of children who are cruel to my own children, destroy their things and harass my pets :)

This thread is crazy . You are all saying the same thing in the end.

• Most of the UP supporters say that they DO have boundaries. So, like the rest of us then (the 'contidional', 'traditional' whatever parents), yes?

• You say that you will enforce boundaries on some situations i.e. safety. That's the old 'pick your battles' then which is what every parent does?

• You talk/listen to your child, explain, negotiate. Ditto.

Some of you have said that you feel your parenting is 'alternative' because you compare it with your strict or abusive upbringing. I understand and respect that. But if you compare it with the majority of new parents it is not that alternative imo (if those who don't have boundaries are not doing proper UP).

Maybe the only difference is the rewards then? When you say 'no rewards' do you mean no choc etc? What about praise? I guess one could argue that praise is a form of reward too?

But bubbleymummy if you are saying that they are that way due to their parenting, it's hardly fair to slate the child for it, is it?

Laq I believe it making sure the right thing gets praised. Not wow you got an A you're really clever (etc.) but look at how well you worked and what that led to. (effect of the former is people think they're good for being clever and that leads to a lot of pressure and fear or failure, which personally does ring true for me)

Yes, i agree about praising the efford.

I also praise them when they play well together.

So UP parents do this aswell and don't considare it as 'reward'?

Maryz, it is going around in circles

Laquiter. I agree with you. Praise is a reward and so is attention. That's why I tend to ignore bad behaviour and praise good. Maybe I am even less UP than I thought.

exoticfruits I don't really understand the 'socially unacceptable' thing. Surely all children are socially unacceptable and we spend their entire childhoods trying to make them more socially acceptable so that they can spread their wings! There are various methods to do this and I doubt if any family would be identical. In terms of judging, I hope that you would judge the wet parent rather than the child in that situation. I just have a 'thing' about people on the one hand saying that this is a shit parenting method and on the other talking about spoilt brats. I think it's really horrible to slag off very small children like that particularly if it's down to the parenting in your opinion.

lililolo - the child is badly behaved and the parent does nothing about it. We can blame the parenting or whatever but I don't need to be tolerant and understanding of her behaviour at the sake of my own children/animals/toys/books. I think some children are more cruel than others and while many of them get corrected by their parents, the ones who are not can be very mean indeed. I genuinely think she is one of them. I have never seen another child have a glint in her eye as she destroys some one else's property or sneakily pretend to hug a child while squeezing him and pinching him until he cries and then looking all innocent at her mother. It's quite shocking really.

Will no one who practises UP admit that it doesn't work for all children? Surely you can't think that there is one type of parenting to suit all?

I don't think that you read my post properly -I specifically said that I would never use the term 'spoilt brat' I would blame the parenting (but only if they seem to be the cause-you can't pre judge and it may be a DC with special needs). I am not aware of slagging off any DCs -I am slagging off people misinterpreting UP.
I have to say that having had LeQueen's post split into sections-I agree with them all.
I think it is important to show DCs approval, if it is deserved. There is many a mixed up adult who has spent their entire life trying (and failing)to get a parent's approval.
There is sometimes a good reason for a reward system. I spent a summer holiday getting my non reading DS to read. We had a star chart, every time he read a book, and could discuss it with me, he got a small reward and a sticker on the chart. Every 5 stickers he got a bigger reward. Of course he was doing it for the reward-BUT -I couldn't care, it had the desired effect and he spent his summer reading and he improved his skills no end.

Doesn't 'brat' just mean a badly behaved child? I'm not sure what the issue is with describing a child as what they are.

Just wanted to add that ak is anti praise, more specifically 'good job!' type praise. I agree with him to an extent, I tend to offer praise similar to that suggested in the 'how to talk' book.

I never use the term brat so I don't know. If a job is well done I say so and thank them. I would get very fed up as an adult if I work really hard and make a superb job of it and no one says 'good job'!

Some DCs never get it at home and their faces light up when someone actually praises them! (praise for everything is as bad as no praise) DCs are not stupid-they know if it is merited.
If it is deserved and it is withheld it is very upsetting-as adults they may well end up with the most unsuitable people-just because they crave approval..

I haven't read the 'how to talk to book' but again I would have thought it was instinct and common sense and depends entirely on who you are talking to!!

It's like any book isn't it - you talke from it what you will. What suits you and your family. I take a lot from it but do not follow it completely, partly due to my instincts and partly the type of child ds is. I think the theory makes sense, but he doesn't give enough practical advice.

Thats interesting Cat98 thanks.
I'm wondering how many who call themselves UP do praise. The ones i know do.