to think it's highly unlikely that Jesus was dead when they put him into the tomb?

[cunexttuesonline]

Crucified for 1 day with nails put in hands and feet and a spear wound on his side. I think he must have just been unconscious when put in the cave. Then 'came to' the day later and pushed the stone away with the sort of supehuman strength that, for example, women get whentheir babies are trapped under soemthing heavy. Guards outside tomb could have been sleeping or buggered off or something.

Seeker, FWIW I can totally see your point (I'm a Christian, in case you haven't read my comments below :) )

We are in Australia ahere is no corporate worship of any kind, unless you opt into it. We have GRE (general religious education) which may come up in parts of the social studies or other parts of the curriculum - ie, learning about faiths in a "people of this faith believe such and such" way. We also have SRE (special religious education) which is provided by religions 'approved' by the state (many and varied, but not just anyone who wants to start one - it needs to be a recignised church or group).

So the SRE teachers come from local churches, synagogues etc and teach those children who have opted into that class for 40 mins per week. At special times of year there are also 'opt in' services - eg Christmas and easter. At other times (eg ANZAC day where we remember those who died in galipolli) there is no religious content as such, just general thankfulness expressed IYSWIM.

Recently our school stuffed up and some classes which were given to all students, and were supposed to be 'relaxation' classes (fine) started to take on a spiritual theme, with children being taught how to balance the chakras amongst other things. Myself, and many other parents (of various faiths) complained, because this should only happen in SRE classes and with parents permission.

I've not gone quiet, I really do see where you're coming from!

I didn't go quiet either seeker, I did attempt to engage with what you were saying.

MadHair - you did - but you said the usual things like "it's not really christian worship" - well it should be - that's what the law says. "It's jsut about thanks and pretty flowers and nioce songs" - so why do thay abe to mention God? "It won't do children any harm to be exposed to these thing " - I agree, it won;t and children need to be exposed to different faiths and ways of thinking. But that's the difference between "learning about" and "doing".

And all the you say abotu children making up their own minds and so on is absolutely true. But it doesnt answer my question - why is a state school the only place where in order to fully participate you have to be a nominal Christian?

The question I asked seeker which has not been answered was this:

There is just as much anti-Christian, atheist propaganda which is fed to my children. I give them the balance at home. One day they will find their own way in the world and if faith plays a part in that, good. If they say to me that they have no faith then I will be sad but I won't make them feel small or stupid. Will you, if yours find they have a faith?

I find it hard to believe (based on your comments previously) that you would be able to behave in that way. Tolerance is not simply something which Christians have to practice.

Curryspice I'm sorry if you took the ironic get a grip comment seriously. Twas not meant so.

OK.

Two points.
My wish for a secular education for my children is nothing to do with my own faith or lack of it. I just think that it is outrageous that in order to fully participate in a state education in this country you have to be a nominal Christian. I would feel this way if I had a strong faith or none.

I don't see where you have got the idea that I am not tolerant of other's beliefs - please will you point out where I have shown this?

ANd secondly, I will love and respect my children in whatever they turn out to believe - unless it is a faith that has core values that I cannot in conscience support.

seeker I'm interested to know which core values would make you not love or respect your own children?

Monday 25th, 22.55: you suggest that there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus.

Tues 24th, 14.31: 'I do think that Christians get a bit over excited when challenged. They are so longing to be persecuted for their faith...'

Wed 27th, 06.30: 'And my comments about some Christians being despeerate to be persecuted for their faith stands. This is the only possible explanation for the existence of the Christian Legal Centre.'

You are highly dismissive about Christians and their beliefs. This is purely extrapolation, and may not be accurate, but a logical conclusion to that is that if one of your children wished to become a Christian you would be highly dismissive of their beliefs.

I'm wondering that too Halfpast but thought I'd deal with my question first!

I am not dismissive of Chritians and their beliefs. And nothing, as far as I am aware that I have posted on here suggests that I am.

I did suggest that there is no absolute historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. I qas talking history here, not religion.

I apologize for the missing "some" in the first sentence you quote. It appears in its proper place when I repeat myself. - "some Christians get over -excited...."

This is not being dismissive of Christians and their faith. It is being dismissive of some very silly people who claim that they are being persecuted for their faith because they are not allowed to do things which are either against the law or against the stated policy of their employers.Most Chriatians asre not like that!

As for the "core values" I mentioned. Well, I think I would find it hard to continue to love and respect a child of mine who became an active member of the BNP, or a member of any religion , philosophy or political party that advocated murder or condoned violence and hatred. Some extremist Muslim sects spring to mind, or Christian ones like those loony Americans on the Louis Theroux programme. Stuff like that.

Buttonmoon, you said -
'There is just as much anti-Christian, atheist propaganda which is fed to my children. "

Could you give some examples, please?

There are two examples which spring to mind immediately which we have touched on further up the thread. The fact that I disagree with these things does not mean that I promote hatred.

Also, the 'fact' that the rights of the individual are absolute is something which I don't necessarily agree with.

There are others but I don't have time for a long post now, I'm happy to come back if you would like further examples.

FWIW, you get extremists and loonies wherever you look. Some use religion to their own ends with no real interest in it at all. Others are simply deluded. I have the same pity (and also a sense of contempt) for them as for those extreme animal rights activists who place greater importance on animal life and welfare than human and commit violence. Or against extreme anti-abortionists who will bomb abortion clinics - as you said (I think it was you) further up, two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm afraid I don;t understand your post at all - it would be great if you could expand a bit?

I am always asking for examples of "christian bashing" "anti Christian propaganda" and 'extreme atheism" and nobody ever seems to be able to give me any.

I'm intererested that you didn't choose to address any of the points in my last two posts! (apart from to agree with me about the danger of extremeists, from whatever quarter)

I wonder if she considers disagreement to be "Christian bashing?"

Everyone's entitled to believe in their own myths and fables, no reason for the rest of us to pretend they're all true.

Just back from a weekend away - I assume that everyone else involved in this thread has been away too.

Looking forward to tobust responses to my last few posts!

Well, I think I would find it hard to continue to love and respect a child of mine who became an active member of the BNP, or a member of any religion , philosophy or political party that advocated murder or condoned violence and hatred. Some extremist Muslim sects spring to mind, or Christian ones like those loony Americans on the Louis Theroux programme. Stuff like that.

Seeker - well you've lost me now! I'll love my kids no matter what they do.

"I did suggest that there is no absolute historical evidence for the existence of Jesus."

I'm always surprised that so many seem to assume it a fact that there are Roman records of the time (like an electoral register perhaps?) documenting the birth and death of Jesus, for a very little research and reading will show that there are none.

There are no Roman records of Jesus' life or death - just one link of many.

I used to believe there were, too. I suppose when we were small our Sunday School teachers made it sound like 'fact' that Jesus was born in Bethlehem in a stable, indisputably crucified by a named Roman governor, that the gospels were actually written by Jesus' friends (no-one knows who wrote them) and we all believed it and passed it on without bothering to check.

And em saying there is no absolute historical evidence for the existence of Jesus is apparantly and example of my dismissive attitude toward the Christian faith - I am baffled by this,

And and actually I'm not sure if I would continue to love and respect my children if they did anyo of the things I suggested - maybe I would? But I would find it bloody hard.

Hello all! just wanted to say I am a Christian and very proud to be so. i believe wholeheartedly that Jesus was born, died and came back to life - and I am really happy about it!

Goo - I;m glad you're happy.

Is anyone going to answer my questions?

Good, obviously.

seeker ANd secondly, I will love and respect my children in whatever they turn out to believe - unless it is a faith that has core values that I cannot in conscience support.

The BNP is a political group, not a religion with core values. Extremism of Islam/Christianity is not a religion in itself but a group within a religion who promote hatred. Their aims do not reflect on the core values of the religion itself. I really wouldn't compare for example the core values of a moderate muslim to those of an extremist islamic group. The extremist hides behind the core values of islam and twists them to it's own end. The same with Christianity.

As far as I'm aware I don't know of any religions who have core values based around hatred or anything that would turn me against my own child.

Some religions preach against same sex relationships however if my child grew up to be homophobic, I of course wouldn't share the same opinion with them and would be disappointed with them but it wouldn't make me love or respect them less as children.

I did expand on that statement in my later posts.

I can't see it.

I talked about membership of extremist sects. I think that sects can have core values - which can differ fromt eh core values of the religions of which they are offshoots.

But as usual, instead of answering my questions, the argument is being turned back on me and my beliefs. So much easier than actually addressing the points I make!

I think your answer was a cop out if I'm honest as your original comment was ' a faith that has core value that you couldn't support' - no mention of an extremist sect within the faith. Perhaps you should have worded your original phrase more clearly.

But as usual, instead of answering my questions, the argument is being turned back on me and my beliefs. So much easier than actually addressing the points I make!

I have not been following your other comments (other than the one we have just discussed) with others so cannot answer such questions. Perhaps when they tune in again they will be able to answer your questions.