To think that the world will never turn to being veggy...

[bananasinpjamas]

To think that the world will never turn to being veggy...and meat is actually quite tasty...yumm ....roast chicken....

But buying free range/freedom food meat if you can afford it is the next best thing?

Spawnchorus, and I can't be arsed to labour the point that standard milk production has the same welfare standards regarding space etc, that organic cows do.

You carry on buying organic milk. And carry on being ripped off by clever marketing.

I very much suspect that you could visit similar sized farms, one organic and one not, look at the cows and not be able to tell which is which.

Spawnchorus, you can come and see our dairy farms, non organic but very good welfare standards, however you will have to hurry as we are getting out of dairying as are a lot or farmers.

QuietTiger, I suspect that she really is not interested in listening to anyone elses' point of view.

I suspect that many vegetarians have never visited a farm, never seen the animals close to, on a daily basis, and never seen them being milked.

Well I can't speak for most vegetarians but I've been veggie since I was a child despite coming from a family of farmers and spending plenty of time on the farm growing up. And, yes, I've milked cows etc etc.

I was vegan for 10 years too, much to my family's horror. DS will be vegetarian until he is old enough to decide (he's not brainwashed - he sees his father and others eating meat).

I still think that lab-grown meat remains the human race's best survival bet in the face of an ever-growing world population.

exoticfruits and fivegomad - I can see that my preferring to buy organic dairy products is getting up your noses, hence the arrogant assumptions about my ability to listen to other people's perspectives, the assumption that I "have never visited a farm" and the smuggery that I'm being "ripped off". Do you think that as non-organic dairy farmers you might be a teeny bit biased?

For the record, I grew up in a largely farming community, and have seen milking close at hand. The farms were small scale and the cows were well looked after. This was over 30 years ago, and dairy units are getting much larger and more intensive. Like it or not, organically reared cattle (which are generally raised in smaller herds) appear to have improved levels of well-being than non-organically reared cattle (did you read the link to the report from the Scottish Agricultural College?). And by buying organic dairy products I can guarantee that I'm not supporting a zero-grazing farm.

This information from OMSCo indicates that there are in fact differences in welfare standards between organic and non-organic dairy farms. One example:

"Are calves treated differently on organic farms?

Organic calves have to be kept in pens where they can interact with other calves and groom each other. On non-organic farms calves can be kept in separate pens, which is unnatural for them and believed to cause stress to the rest of the herd.

Organic calves are usually reared on natural cow?s milk - their mother?s or a nurse cow?s. On non-organic farms calves can be quickly separated from their mothers and fed re-constituted milk.

After weaning, the calves are kept together in social groups. Herd animals need social contact and find it very distressing to be alone.

The female calves (heifers) will usually be kept and added to the dairy herd. Only one bull can run with a herd of cows, however, so some of the male calves may be raised for organic beef. This means they will mostly be out at grass and have a good quality of life, even if it is quite short - they are usually slaughtered at around 20 months. They are subject to strict regulations which govern how they are transported and sold."

MOreover it's not just the cows' welfare, but also that of the surrounding environment and the small mammals and birds therein that benefit from organic farming.

But do you know what, even if all organic dairy buyers are being duped into thinking that they are buying a more humane product, I would still buy it in the hope that the farmers could see that there is a growing market out there of people who care about animal welfare and are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Well apart from the non organic bit, we pretty much do all of that anyway.

And not at all getting up my nose, just putting a different perspective on it, i.e. not all non organic farmers are evil.

And you can guarantee that all non-organic milk is produced under the same standards?

Have I said that all non-organic farmers are evil?

And what do you mean by "apart from the non-organic bit we pretty much do all of that anyway"?

exoticfruits and fivegomad - I can see that my preferring to buy organic dairy products is getting up your noses, hence the arrogant assumptions about my ability to listen to other people's perspectives

Why would it do that? I prefer to buy organic-especially dairy products.

I'm not really referring to you SpawnChorus-I just doubt whether many vegetarians are as clued up -and if they were to have 10 questions on milk production I doubt whether they would get many right.

Apols exoticfruits. I meant QuietTiger.

Spawnchorus - I couldn't give a shit about whether you buy organic milk or not, I buy organic free-range beef, chicken & pork for exactly the reasons you describe.

What I object to, is that you are claiming that organic dairy cow welfare is better than standard milk production cow welfare. In many ways it is not, because the milk is produced in EXACTLY the same way through a milking parlour and the "organic" cows are bred exactly the same was a comercial cow. They suffer exactly the same problems with poor feet and mastitis, the only difference is that organic farmers cannot routinely use antibiotics to cure a condition. THAT can lead to it's own welfare issue, and frequently does.

What both fivegomadindorset and I are trying to say and you seem to be refusing to see, is that the majority of decent farmers are on farm assurance schemes which mean that they have to meet stringent guidelines regarding welfare, transport and the like. 99 times out of 100 those are the exact same standards as organic welfare standards.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Unsurprisingly this has deteriorated into a fight between vegetarians and meat eaters. Surely it's not about whether or not you have the "right" to eat what you want but whether or not it's sustainable into the future.

We need space, ie land, to produce crops to feed both people and farmed animals. The population of the world is increasing. Therefore we need to produce more crops to feed this increasing population. Because of the figures already given on this thread, surely it makes more sense to give over more land to crops for humans rather than crops for animals/grazing land for animals as this takes up less space? Eating fewer animals also reduces methane, one of the worst greenhouse gases. Surely a win-win situation?

I know this is simplistic but the idea seems logical to me.

YANBU. I am vegetarian.My dh and dc are not though,so I always make sure the meat / eggs etc are free range.Can understand some people can not afford it but if I was in that position I would do without something else (wouldnt be hard maybe buy cheaper shampoo or toilet roll) so i could put the extra towards the free range products.Think anyone who buys cheap meat /eggs etc is very very inconsiderate,and possibly agree with whoever said it may be to do with upbringing.

QuietTiger - the "we'll have to agree to disagree" line is usually trotted out when the debate is a matter of opinion. I'm afraid that it is simply NOT just a matter of opinion regarding the welfare standards of organic vs non-organic dairy herds. Have you read any of the links I've provided to far, and if so, why are you glossing over them? There is a direct comparison between National FArm Assurance Schemes and Soil Association here on pages 17 and 18 and it is quite clear that the Soil Association Standard meets more welfare criteria than the NFAS (in the case of dairy 11/15 vs 5/15 respectively).

I'm sure your farm is just lovely, but can you guarantee that any non-organic milk I buy comes from a farm that meets the same welfare critera? Can you guarantee that it doesn't come from a zero-grazing unit? Even if 99/100 of the farms meet exactly the same standard as the Soil Association approved farms, I would still buy organic products to avoid that one percent.

Finally, it's very frustrating to be accused of "not listening" or "refusing to see" when in fact I have acknowledged your points and offered counter-arguments of my own, backed up where possible with independent documentation. I rather suspect that you're confusing "refusing to see" with "refusing to agree".

"still waiting for a decent argument for eating meat"

It is highly nutritious and it tastes good.

That is the reason we eat meat. It is the only reason why we eat anything.

Nobody needs an "argument". It is food. I eat it. Very simple.

"Inuit - they still have a significantly shorter lifespan than other Canadians"

That probably has to do with the fact that they live in the harshest environment known to man.